Nebulous "It" and Absolutes

[symestreem]

Here is a quote I found from Understanding Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings by William Ready. Not canon, of course, but expresses some of the points in clearer language. Emphasis is mine.

All seems well, but Frodo has lost his living for his kin. While Sam, Pippin and Merry gleefully contemplate their return to the Shire, where Sam is to flourish and weather for years as the Mayor, Frodo is no more for this world; he has transcended hobbitry. His wounds will not altogether mend again in this life, and he bids farewell to Sam, wishing he were returning with him:

An interesting excerpt, and it raises the question of which wounds Mr. Ready is referring to. Do we actually know the extent of the damage to Frodo's mind and soul? If, as has been expressed here, Frodo went through "hell" and "deepest darkness", but Sam did not, then the torment must have come in the actual Ringbearing itself, for Sam went through almost all of the same physical experiences as Frodo. But Bilbo, a former Ringbearer, is serene after he loses the Ring. So what evidence do we have to support the theory that Frodo's last days were miserable? I'm not implying that his life was a bed of roses (yuck, allergies!); I just don't think it's in a hobbit's nature to be utterly cast down.
I don't mean to harp on this theme; I'm just not convinced.

[Imladris]

I believe I heard years ago, that the Ring symbolised pure evil. Thus, inevitably, Frodo would be affected more than Sam. As for Bilbo, the Ring was asleep...it's power of evil was not awake, and thus could not do as powerful and lasting damage.

As for Frodo's hopelessness, I'm also not convinced of that.

Still round the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate;
And though I oft have passed them by,
A day will come at last when I
Shall take the hidden paths that run
West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

This was the song that Frodo sang as he left the Shire. It doesn't quite have the ring of despair to me.

[davem]

Maybe you're right - I must be honest, I've been kind of using this thread to make sense of an incident, which it wouldn't be right to go into here, but it involved something very bad which happened to a person I knew.

It all comes down to suffering & its effects. Do we grow through suffering - & even if we do, is that enough to absolve the Creator, or fate. If the suffering is so extreme it breaks us (even if we're re-made into something higher, more spiritually aware) would that be enough to make it ok to have broken us.

Sam & Frodo come through the quest at opposite ends of an extreme. They stand at the Sammath Naur, Ring gone into the Flames, & Sam tells Frodo they should get out of there, becuase its not like him to just give up, & Frodo reponds, maybe not, but its like things are in the world. Sam speaks subjectively. Frodo objectively. Sam says 'Never say die', Frodo says 'Everything dies'.

Frodo may have become more Elvish - but he's a Hobbit, not an Elf. He's lost himself - & in the end I suppose that's the 'It' we're talking about - everything that made him who he was, which became bound up with & symbolised by the Ring.

I just can't shake the feeling that what happened to Frodo was 'wrong' - even if he chose it - but it wasn't a free choice. as someone has said, it was the lesser of two evils, & that seems just plain wrong - you afre faced with choosing the lesser of two evils, & that choice breaks you. Yet, it is like things are in the world.

[symestreem]

davem, that's pretty profound. Wow.

It all comes down to suffering & its effects. Do we grow through suffering - & even if we do, is that enough to absolve the Creator, or fate. If the suffering is so extreme it breaks us (even if we're re-made into something higher, more spiritually aware) would that be enough to make it ok to have broken us.

Turn the question around. If we have the opportunity to have the opportunity to grow, and we are not given it to save us some anguish, is that fair?

Frodo may have become more Elvish - but he's a Hobbit, not an Elf. He's lost himself - & in the end I suppose that's the 'It' we're talking about - everything that made him who he was, which became bound up with & symbolised by the Ring.

What makes Frodo a Hobbit? A pair of pointy ears and furry feet? What you look like is a chance result of the genetic lottery. It's what you are that counts, and Frodo is different from the others that look like him. He's more 'elvish' (I hesitate to use this term, since it is not accurate- maybe saying he is 'higher' is better) to begin with. I don't know if we can really resolve this, because it comes down to who he is. Who is anyone? What makes a person them? Who am I, really?

[Imladris]

The thing with Frodo is that he grew intellectually and spiritually. The Hobbits were a fairly simple folk, with simple traditions, with simple thinking. They cared more for the homey pleasantries of life and, on the whole, were optimistic.

The elves, on the other hand, were intelligent and had a more realistic view on life. They realized that things came to an end, even good things. That's what Frodo came to realize as well.

Frodo is not a broken person. When I read LotR for the first time, that is not what instantly popped into my head. He had suffered much and grown much. He's like a tree that grows stronger through the storms. If you keep it sheltered, it won't grow as strong. During the storms it may loose a limb or two, but it's heart -- it's root-- remains the same. And in time those limbs will grow back stronger and different thatn before.

You can either view growing through anguish or not growing at all a lesser of two evils but in my mind, it is not so. Wouldn't you rather grow and discover the truth of the world, than not grow at all and live in a delusionary reality?

[davem]

Of course Frodo grew, but into what, & was it what he wanted to grow into? Why should he have had to grow in a way he had no say in?

In other words, growth through suffering is all very nice sounding, but in reality the process isoften just horrible & cruel, & not spiritual at all - even if we can call the result 'spiritual'. But we could also ask what makes Frodo 'spiritual' in the same way as we can ask 'What makes Frodo a Hobbit'?.

Is he a more 'spiritual' being at the end because he's lost everything he had & resigned himself to his fate - I'm not sure this constitutes 'spirituality'. But if not, what does?

He 'grows, beyond what he was, becomes too large for the little world of the Shire - but Bilbo says he loved the woods, fields & little rivers - did someone/something just decide to take them away, or did he give them up in full knowledge, or just lose them along the way - or cast them away like the Orc gear in Mordor. Had he come to a point where he thought of what he had been, a Hobbit wandering the Shire & drinking in the local pub as being somehow 'uncouth', simplistic - in a sense 'Orcish', so that he was throwing away his own past & hobbit nature along with the Orc mail & sword, & deliberately deciding to become an 'Elf'?

Yet, he's not, & can never be, an Elf, so what has he become?

[Imladris]

I don't quite understand what you mean when you ask, "What did Frodo grow into?" He didn't grow into anything at all. When you grow like Frodo did, you gain understanding of the world and how it operates. You don't grow into a different, super spiritual person.

Yes, Frodo did give it up. I believe that this has been said before, but Frodo made a conscious descision to continue his quest. Thus, he willingly gave up everything he lost (his innocense, etc). But you're forgetting that he gained so much more than he lost. He gained the joy of seeing the hobbits in peace, of seeing Middle-earth saved. He gained understanding of pity and mercy.

I do not believe that Frodo cast the Shire away like orc gear, that he viewed the hobbit ways as uncouth. That is against his very nature, and the ending would have been infused with hate, which it wasn't.

Frodo suffered much, gained much, saved much. As a reward, he went to Valinor. That's all what happened. It was the only place he could go that would ease his suffering. Isn't that worth the pain, living your life out with Bilbo and the elves? Of course, it doesn't say that his troubles were relieved, but I believe that is heavily understated.