Nazgul-Were they still Men?

[burrahobbit]

Gauntlets and cloaks are a part of the world btw. They still have sinews, they are housed.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

They are not disembodied spirits, as I first thought...

And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows.

(The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age - emphasis mine)

They are Men, no longer living but not quite dead, trapped in a limbo-state called the realm of shadows - or wraith world. Unless there is a geographical realm of shadows.

[burrahobbit]

I reckon that's what I said, yes.

[Bêthberry]

A tantalizingly vague question that can be taken many ways, bilbo_baggins.

If the Nazgul were once Men, and Saruman could control Men, could Saruman sweet-talk the Nazgul into submission? Or could the Nazgul be subject to other things Men are subject to?

Sharkey has chosen to provide a textual reference for one instance in which Saruman was said to influence the Nazgul. Yet is such 'source'evidence all there is that can be said about the question? Is it merely a matter of explaining away possible contradictions in the mythology? Or is further discussion?

And burrahobbit has claimed of men that:

Pretty much the only thing that all men are subject to is dying and then leaving the world,

Now, this is interesting. I suppose burra has 'covered' himself here in limiting his statement to "all men," but it seems to me that men are subject to far more than death. There are many temptations, sins, desires, susceptibilties, vanities, and wishes that men are heir to.

Is it not possible to consider bilbo's question as one concerning the extent to which the Nazgul were as fallable as men? This is not a question as to the natue of their transformation into wraiths--spirit vs body or how much they were enslaved--but what would be the various means by which they could be tempted.

Would they be susceptible to flattery? to desire and lust? to revenge? Could Saruman appeal to these susceptibilties as the devil or satan has to men's vanities in stories over the ages?
This is, I would suggest, a more philsophical and less textual way to consider just what is involved in Tolkien's creation of enslaved men.

I also hear a small RPG bell ringing. Imagine a kind of Dorien Gray story here.

[Mad Baggins]

When the ring was destroyed, their bondage to the ring was over. At that time, they died or passed away.

I have another question. When the Ring was destroyed and the Nazgul passed away, did they become good again because Sauron's dominance over them was destroyed? Or, because of all the years they had been enslaved by him, did they remain evil as spirits?

Or could the Nazgul be subject to other things Men are subject to?

And I think that all men, be they Wraiths or no, are still susceptible to greed, flattery, lust, etc. The Nazgul were still men (although wraith-men) but as the Saruman quote from earlier on shows, they can still trust in people whom they perceive as allies. So if they can trust, can they not be greedy?

[Kuruharan]

And I think that all men, be they Wraiths or no, are still susceptible to greed, flattery, lust, etc. The Nazgul were still men (although wraith-men) but as the Saruman quote from earlier on shows, they can still trust in people whom they perceive as allies. So if they can trust, can they not be greedy?

I think that their enslavement to Sauron would prevent that. The only reason why they "trusted" Saruman was because they thought that Sauron trusted him (or at least did not want to kill him at that moment).

Being enslaved to Sauron's will to the point that they could refuse the Gift of Men I think would eliminate such trivial matters as personal opinion, vanity, desire, etc. Their opinions would be the opinions of Sauron. They were not capable of deliberately doing anything against his interest.

[Mad Baggins]

Good point, Kuruharan. So the Wraiths would trust whoever Sauron trusted, want whatever Sauron wanted, etc.

As for when the Nazgul passed away, they would no doubt (corny as it sounds) be 'set free' from Sauron's enslavement and become the free-minded people they had been before Sauron swayed their minds. Except now they would be spirits, and not people. Does anyone think otherwise?