Unnumbered Tears - what if?

[davem]

In this, what I see is Tolkien, having the original story of the Valar's inaction - which worked on BoLT, & even in the Quenta, when they were less 'Angelic' in a strictly, shall we say, 'Catholic' sense, attempting to construct a theological explanation for the Valar's inaction. The later writings, as Christopher Tolkien has stated, caused numerous problems for his father, as he attempted to make them conform to scientific & theological standards. I struggle with Tolkien's reasoning here

Quote:Should Manwë and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate?

This doesn't work as a justification for their lack of immediate action, & their demand that the Noldor be broken & they themselves be begged for aid, before they will intervene. This is the story of thousands of years of hellish suffering, enslavement & violent death of innocents. Could the Valar not have known what was really going on?

Was Tolkien attempting to find an explanation for the suffering in this world - why doesn't God intervene to stop the horrors? Well, God can't go tricking evil people, & taking away their freedom, can He?

What Tolkien seems to be doing is constructing an explanation, attempting to fathom the motives of God in a world where suffering continues unabated. These later writings are profound theological explorations, but do they belong in ME?

In LotR the explanation is simpler, & more profound - Frodo tells Sam that suffering is simply 'like things are in the world. Hopes fail, an end comes' all else is our feeble attempt to fathom the mind of God, & work out the reason for suffering. These later writings are the attempt of an old man to make sense of his life, & of life & death in general. He is using the medium of his Legendarium to explore questions that baffled him. He has long since left behind his desire to create a mythology for England, or to create a mythology at all.

The events he is using for his theological explorations are in stories which were never meant for such deep analysis. He had written stories to bring back a sense of magic & wonder to a world which he felt had lost it - through war & industrialisation. In these last writings he is using those stories to do something else. They aren't part of the stories, they are his comments, & thoughts on things much deeper. They can be used to give depth to the stories - but that was never their intent, & they contradict too often the stories themselves. But that is not important, because we're dealing with something of a wholly different order. As Christopher Tolkien has stated, these writings became the repository of some of his father's profoundest thoughts.

If we take the stories themselves, the actual events of the tales, out interpretations may stand alongside Tolkien's own - because what we have in the pieces quoted are simply Tolkien's attempts to interpret tales he had long since ceased to tell, & was in the process of trying to understand.

[the phantom]

If they were 'stopped' by the Music from acting, then that would mean that the Noldor were meant to go to ME - though probably not in the way they did - & that they were meant to hold Morgoth at bay till the Valar could act effectively against Morgoth - which would mean that the Noldor's 'sin' is not in leaving Valinor - in fact they should have gone - which would mean the Valar were wrong to try & stop them.

Well, that's pretty much what I have always believed, though I don't exactly think that the music "stopped" the Valar and made it so they couldn't have acted differently. I think the music just foretold that they wouldn't act differently than they did.

[HerenIstarion]

this thread grew reminiscent of Evil Things thread, heh.

Well, since most of what I can do will be repeating my own comments from over there, and in that I will fall short of Maédhros since I lack access to VT resources, I will add just a bit only:

Where meant re:

1. The whole history was meant to happen as it did, for Eru is omniscient and was certainly in the know what was going to happen when He said Ea. (things might have been different, but they could not have been better - as quoted from Leaf by Niggle
2. Freedom of choice is not eliminated by omniscience of Eru and the maxim of "it all was meant to be in this way"

And why should not we lend our ears to Tolkien, even if it seems to some that he contradicted himself in his later writings, after all?

[symestreem]

So we've pretty much established that the loss of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears was possibly the lesser of evils, and that the treachery of the Men was caused by the curse of the Noldor. Doesn't this imply that the curse actually brought good to the elves? (Relatively speaking of course; it also brought all of the Narn i Hin Hurin.) If they'd left Middle-earth without being cursed, would it have turned out worse for them?

[HerenIstarion]

and that the treachery of the Men was caused by the curse of the Noldor

Quite a difficult issue, this. I'd say, treachery of Men was the consequence of the choice the Men who betrayed elves did, but, for the Noldor, treason may have been the result of their blindness and haughtiness, not imposed, but predicted by the curse of Mandos.

You see, I always figured Mandos as someone not cursing in a sense as giving cause to following effect, but predicting what effects will follow if such and such course of action is taken

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I always figured Mandos as someone not cursing in a sense as giving cause to following effect, but predicting what effects will follow if such and such course of action is taken.

Exactly what I was thinking, too. He only speaks what will be.

This quote of Maédhros perked me up:

...the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it.

Perhaps Eru, knowing of the Ainur's reaction to Melkor's themes, had used his Elder children to redress this lack of faith. Morgoth's initial strength slowly dissipated due to his hatred and his desire to dominate the Eldar; hence when the host of Valinor assaulted Middle-earth, Morgoth was no longer able of doing damage, catastrophic or not.

Of course it would have been better if they had done this earlier...

And what of the Valar's "immaturity" and "dismay"?

It is told that after the flight of Melkor the Valar sat long unmoved upon their thrones in the Ring of Doom, but they were not idle, as Fëanor declared in the folly of his heart.

(The Silmarillion 11 - emphasis mine)

So much for dismay...

...and [the Valar's] thought passed beyond Eä and forth to the End...

(The Silmarillion 11)

You could tell me many more interpretations of "the End," but I believe it was the end of the vision of Ainulindalë,

And some have said that the vision [i.e., of Ainulindalë] ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn...

(The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)

Nobody would want to fade. The Valar knew that eventually, the Younger shall supplant the Elder Children of Ilúvatar. Hence, they tried to hold back the Eldar from marching to their own sorrow - all that they would accomplish there they could not own forever.

Of course, they could have utilised force to this end. But they didn't. Though unwilling, they let the Noldor go whither they will.

Now the Kinslaying. Why throw a last surprise at the departing ones?

[Mandos(?): ]Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood...

The Silmarillion 9 - emphasis mine)

It was merely a punishment for the Kinslaying.