Good versus evil: Downplayed, or overplayed?

[The Saucepan Man]

Also, I thought that the point of journalism was to present facts in an unbiased fashion.

I can only conclude that the press in Las Vegas is very different to the UK press.

[Knight of Gondor]

Oh, let's not make this about me. Despite the fact that you know me so well and everything.

Lush, come now, I’m just teasing you a little about how I am certain of disagreeing with you, no matter what you post, just based on the content of what you say. I mean no personal offense.

Um, not really. Just because we are, say, fans of Viggo Mortensen's portrayal of Aragorn shouldn't make us privy to his spiritual life. This sort of ideology would leads us straight down the primrose path and into the Parisian tunnel where Diana lay bleeding as photographers clicked away. Simply put, there are aspects of people's lives that should remain private property.

*Shrugs* I don’t know what Princess Diana has to do with anything, but I’m happy to let the actors remain in a vacuum of ignorance. I’m just agreeing for the most part with Ms. Basham’s assertion that the director and screen writers ignore a large body of material in Tolkien’s work by shunning the idea of fleshing out those Christian themes.

And she could have done much better.

By your standards, perhaps.

I assume you meant immortal?

Yes, ha ha, I looked over that error after I got offline, and meant to change it. At least I know you’re reading what I write!

Plus, have I entirely missed the part where the Valar were referred to as "angels"? And the Norse Mythologies were what, exactly? An accidental footnote in Tolkien's creative process?

To have one solid, omniscient being that rules over the rest is Deist at the worst, and Christian at best. I’m not familiar with many of the mythological tales wherein one supreme being rules over the other “gods” as they were. I think we can safely assume that this wouldn’t be an element if Tolkien were secularist. Instead, his religion influenced his works so that he creates a God-like character.

I'm not disagreeing with you that Christianity is a big part of Tolkien's influence;

Thank you. The part where we come down to it is where PJ does.

what I am saying is that the articles you provided seem to present that influence in a way that obsucres all others. And does so in a snippety, clumsy manner; entirely unworthy, in my opinion, of the complex beauty of Christian theology and its influence on Tolkien's work.

I apologize for not having a better-written article for you. That’s what I found, that’s what I read, that’s what I liked, and that’s what I thought I’d share for discussion. If you don’t like the style, you don’t have to read it.

Knight, since you obviously seems to know me better than I know myself: what is this "viewpoint" of mine you are referring?

I’m conscious of a need to refrain from personal disputes, because those are the sorts of things that get threads shut down, and I’m really unwilling to allow this one to. I merely mean that everyone has a viewpoint, and it influences how you view things, that’s all. You don’t share Ms. Basham’s faith, therefore you are critical of her for writing according to her beliefs. If you were to write an article praising PJ for refraining from Christian thematic elements, then I would probably be critical if it, if for no other reason than because I believe a certain way, and this influences my thinking.

[Knight of Gondor]

And where did the implication of "babbling kook" pop up in my responses? I certainly said she's low-brow and whiny; well-meaning, yes, but not a good writer nonetheless. Perhaps all bad journalism is written in earnest?

It doesn’t seem to be a large step between whiny and low-brow and babbling kook. Difference of a few letters, but as far as intent goes...

If I mischaracterize your opinion, again, my apologies. To quote Faramir, “that is not my intent.”

Knight, thanks for providing Ms. Basham's other article, it was quite helpful in understanding where she was coming from.

You bet, Lord of Angmar. I knew it was out there somewhere (based mostly on that end sentence, actually, because it stuck in my brain), I just couldn’t find it online. Finally did, though. It is more helpful as far as context goes.

Just a quick note: I think perhaps a more appropriate time would be an more intimate one-on-one interview between a journalist and one or two of the cast members from the movie, in which the discussion of religious and spiritual ideology is a subject of debate/questioning consented to by all parties involved.

I gather from the article that a press junket was surprising enough as it was for Ms. Basham to attend. To hope for one-on-one interviews with one of them (much less the rest of them!) would be a little much.

I agree wholeheartedly. I am an outspoken critic of the intrusion of paparazzi into the lives of celebrities.

Well, the paparazzi don’t hassle me at all, so I’m okay with that.

Once again, two posts. *Sigh*

As I said earlier, I also find it unreasonable for a journalist to expect actors (lest we forget, they are paid professionals merely doing their jobs) to be able to provide coherent analysis of the ideas and beliefs behind the movie they are starring in. That is not their job. Their job is to act dramatically or comically as the situation requires, and to do the best job of it possible with the material and the direction that is given them.

Although I think it is a shame that most of the actors believe the way they do, there are two points I’ve stuck with.

1. The actors have no business denying that which is pretty obviously present in the series. It reflects a bit of a hidden agenda of their own to attempt to push their own ideology on Lord of the Rings.

2. The problem is more with the authors (Boyens, Walsh, Jackson), who are either blatantly ignoring it, or are intentionally ignoring those underlying themes.

Underlying themes and applicability are not allegory. Allegory is a consciously symbolic representation of a theme, person or event.

Which is why I said that applicability and thematic elements were present, not blatant allegory.

course I agree that there are underlying themes and ideas, most of which are only generically Christian

I believe you’re the second person to openly admit this. The problem is when the cast/crew cannot!

The whole concept of good and evil is clearly and inherently present in the Lord of the Rings

But it’s also a bit of a problem for the film makers to assert that those themes are no more real than elves or dragons! (Although according to the “Have you seen __?” thread, some people believe in those too! )

Also, I thought that the point of journalism was to present facts in an unbiased fashion. She doesn't do this.

I don’t believe this was intended as an unbiased article, but more of an editorial. Nonetheless, it’s certainly not uncommon for bias to leak through articles! It’s as I said, there is no one that does not have their own prior bias about a topic.

I can only conclude that the press in Las Vegas is very different to the UK press.

Maybe in Vegas, but I doubt it. Do they get The New York Times in Vegas?

[The Barrow-Wight]

This topic is turning into the battle of the quotes. That generally indicates everyone is starting to repeat themself. Let's try to have less tit for tat and more original points. Barring that, it may be time to move on to a new topic.

[Lush]

The original question posed in this thread was whether or not the people that put the films together recognized the centrality of the battle between Good and Evil in Lord of the Rings, the book.

Based on the responses Megan Basham provided, no matter how clumsily (yes, perhaps the inferiority of her style is only my "opinion"; but I do study and practice this stuff; I've got my standards, pretentious as they may be), as well as other materials I've read, I would say yes.

Even if the Christian elements of the book escape our wonderful thespians, filmmakers and script-writers, we must remember that Good and Evil are not exclusive to the Christian domain of thought. Tolkien knew that. I doubt he would have taken so much influence from Norse myth if he thought otherwise. Certainly we are not too cool for his views on the matter.

And, as an afterthought:

You don’t share Ms. Basham’s faith, therefore you are critical of her for writing according to her beliefs.

Quoi?...Knight, I'd tell you what the folk-version of Sherlock Holmes says about the word "assume," but I stand warned by the Barrow-Wight to be a nice girl.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I don't think the Theme of Good Versus Evil was Overplayed nor do I think it was Downplayed, it was evident but not to obvious.

[Saraphim]

Ah, yes. I had forgotten Editorials.

Message to Everyone: ignore my last post!

Anyway, I'm a bit confused about your arguement here, Knight. I thought that it was a good thing (especially from your POV) that Peter Jackson wasn't interested in fleshing out the Christian themes?