Friends of Nimrodel: Tapestry of Dreams - Discussion

[mark12_30]

Wow, that was quite an intersection of ideas! lmp, didja see the edits on the wainriders and other easterlings?... shoo!

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

I love your idea, Nuru!

I know I'm a little late here with this idea...but I thought I'd include some info...

I'm not aware that Tolkien ever mentioned "gypsies" as such; perhaps because (if I recall correctly) gypsies were originally a particular strain of nationality...? I seem to connect them vaguely with the Hungarians somehow, not sure if that is correct.

This site has a lot of information on Roma.

"The Roma are an ethnic minority whose origins began on the Indian subcontinent over one thousand years ago. Because they arrived in Europe from the East, they were thought by the first Europeans to be from Turkey, Nubia or Egypt, or any number of non-European places. They were called, among other things, Egyptians or ‘Gyptians, which is where the word "Gypsy" comes from."

I think this quote is why I'm not entirely sure if they'd be called "Gypsies" in Middle-Earth if they did exist, but it depends on how Helen wants it.

"Most Roma have always referred to themselves by their tribal names, or as Rom or Roma, meaning "Man" or "People." The trend is to eliminate the use of derogatory, pejorative and offensive names, such as Gypsies, and to be given proper respect by the use of the self-appelation of Roma, or Rroma. Gypsies, although offensive to most Roma, is still a proper name."

Anyway, the idea sounds like a great deal of fun, Nuru, and I think if you just use lmp's idea of them being Easterlings it would work out fine. Helen, do you think the wanderer's should have a name other than 'Gypsies' or is it okay to use? I just wanted to make sure.

Also, in my last post it is still the night of the 14th, but after Amroth leaves for I assumed that he left at night. If this isn't right, just let me know and I'll edit a bit.

[Nurumaiel]

Thanks for all the suggestions for the gypsies! I was aware that the name actually referred to a particular race, but it's become a habit around this house to use it as a reference to 'the travelling people,' whatever race they happen to be. I preferred Liornung to say 'gypsy' oppose to 'tinker' or 'rolling stone' or any other such name. I love the idea of the Easterlings...

However my idea with this group was using the term 'gypsies' as a group of wandering people rather than the Roma, or in this case Easterlings (I'm not Roma, but I'm sometimes referred to as the 'Whistling Gypsy,' merely implyng that I'm a whistling, singing person who spends much time wandering through the woods and the like). It would be a very old group of wandering people... if they were to mention their history when the Rohan company encounters them perhaps it could have started with a few Easterlings travelling many, many years ago, years before the War of the Ring, and it had grown over time as lone wanderers from Rohan and Gondor joined them. How would this work?

I could work it either way, that is, use gypsy as a term referring to the Roma or in the game the Easterlings, or as merely a group of wandering people. Let me know what you think.

[mark12_30]

Nuru--

I like the people and what you are doing with them and how Liornung relates to them. The rohirric family I think littlemanpoet wil have something to say about-- he seems to have strong feelings about it and I'm not sure why but I respect his opinions highly, so if he feels strongly about it, we'll weigh that quite heavily.

Other than that-- I just think the word "gypsies" is jarring. But I have an idea: WHy not come up with an old-English word tht means "wanderers" or "carriage-riders" or something, and use that? Maybe lmp could help, or Bethberry, or somebody.

Sound doable?

[Nurumaiel]

Helen,
I would like to know what littlemanpoet says about it, but I personally don't see what the problem would be with a Rohirric family that wandered about. After all, Liornung is of Rohan and he wanders about. Just a warning, lmp..... if you don't like it I'd like a valid reason why they shouldn't be in there. I would have to come up with a new character to introduce to the game other than the one I was already intending, which would be a bit of a bother yet I could manage. The main problem is that I've already grown a bit attached to this character I plan to introduce and would hate to have it discarded.

The Old English word for 'wander' is scriþan and 'travel' is faran. However I don't know Old English grammar and wouldn't know how to change it to 'wanderers' or 'wandering people.' If anyone more knowledgable would like to help out...? Of course there could always be an adaption of the name as for gypsies.

If you really detest me using the word gypsy I shan't, but I think it is a very enchanting word and like to use it. That, however, is not a very good reason for using it. I just believe that a word of that sort would also appeal to Liornung's imagination. Somehow the Old English words for wander and travel don't hold the same enchantment.

Interesting discussion, by the way.

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks for asking about it. My only concern regarding the Rohirrim is that Anglo-Saxon people (circa 400 to 1000) who wandered were pretty much limited to clerics, pilgrims, and beggars; and it was indeed true that some people fit all three categories at once. They tended not to have generational histories, which is what you're intending for your wanderers. I say that only because the Anglo-Saxons are Tolkien's template for the Rohirrim.

That said, it must be noted that the Rohirrim have been in Rohan (formerly Calenardhon) since Third Age 2510, which, if we are in, say, the first decade of the Fourth Age, just over 500 years. That's a pretty long-lived civilization. Still, Rohan has been ravaged by war. I find it striking that by and large, the breadth of Rohan is pretty much unpeopled. That's a lot of wandering room. Over that span of time, I can imagine a clan having, for one reason or another, picked up roots, and decided to become Wayfarers.

But whatever got them uprooted would have to be quite powerful, to change their way of life. So give them a powerful reason to have uprooted themselves from their cultural base, as compared to all the other Rohirrim who have remained rooted. It seems like a tall order to me, but doable. If you'd like some help with it, I'd be happy to. You'll notice that I bolded Wayfarers. That would be the Anglo-Saxon name that is most fitting. Use if it you like.

Hope that helps to both clarify my (mild) opposition to the idea in the first place, as well as ways to account for it.

[Nurumaiel]

littlemanpoet,
This is truly lovely. I think this is the first RPG where I've had to work to get something right and not simply be able to do it or be told I couldn't......

Is this group of travellers, or wayfarers (which is almost as striking a word as gypsies), there are a few other Rohirric people besides those which were mentioned, though the majority are made up of the Easterlings. Perhaps these people could have, in either the recent War or some older war, lost their homes and taken up wandering, being encountered with poverty and no way to earn back what they had lost and seeing it as the only way of life? Perhaps there were Rohirric families that were not pure Rohirric and a bit more adventurous than the others (rather like the Tooks and the Brandybucks?) and when the wandering Easterlings passed by they took up a notion to follow them? Do help me think of reasons, for I need a wide variety. Though the Rohirric in this band of travellers are not many there are still a few of different families and situations and it would be nice to know they have different, valid reasons for becoming wayfarers even if it's never mentioned in the game because they're never mentioned. If you like, littlemanpoet, you could even have your character talk about with various Rohirric people and give 'histories of the leaving home' for them actually inside the game.

As for the Rohirric family I've already mentioned, they had no strong reason for leaving their home. The father was a wanderer in his younger days (perhaps a beggar or even a minstrel of a sort as Liornung) and he took a fancy into his head to go on the road again despite family. This lack of strong reason is why his wife doesn't like it and his daughter doesn't like it (and the other children? I don't know if there are other children yet), and also why he probably will be going home sometime soon. Of course I don't know that he'll go home, but everything is against him. It's a bit awful that I don't know my own characters, isn't it?

Let's have fun working this out, for it's a discussion I've never seen anywhere before and I'm enjoying it.

Helen,
Last night was an awful one for me... I'm developing a cold and a sore throat kept me awake most of the night (singing in the choir didn't help, either, though the guitar was awfully fun).... so waking up in misery I don't know if I can handle another character at the moment. Perhaps just a passing whim.... as the character was going to be from the gypsy group (I can say gypsy on the discussion thread, can't I?) I'm just thinking of having those two groups (the gypsies and the Rohan company) be travelling along with each other for a few days before the gypsies veer off. Maybe Dec. 17 or 18. So the character would be rather temporary, and this would give littlemanpoet and Aylwen to play around with characters they could only post about once, if they cared to. Is that all right with you?

[mark12_30]

THis morning I thought of another possibility which (to me) has a certain appeal. Since we are in year 12 or 14 or so of Elessar's reign, he has pardoned the Easterlings and made treaties with them. It is probable that Rohan is now at peace with the Wainriders of Southern Mirkwood. They could be there by treaty. So they could also be called "Wainriders".

What think ye?

NURU: we cross-posted, whups. "Wayfarers" is indeed a romantic name. In terms of how long you want to carry the characters-- that's up to you, you invented them! Well, it's partly also up to the plot, if you know what I mean, but If you want the gy-- er-- Wayfarers to be temporary they're your characters. On the other hand, if another writer falls in love (in a writerly manner o' speakin') with one of your gy-- er-- Wayfarers then they can nicely ask you for permission to carry that character themselves and it will be between you and said writer.

Once in a while minor characters tag along, carried by the team as a whole, for large parts of the story, and that's okay too.

Working this stuff out is half the fun, eh?