Lament for the Elves - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalaith · 04-20-2004, 06:21 AM

Like Bethberry, I confess to faulty memory about insults in Tolkien. But, if it's any help to RPGers and others, there is an authentic tradition of insult-trading in Norse literature - which is after all where Tolkien got inspiration for dwarf names, runes and culture.
It's called 'flyting', and examples can be found in the Eddas and sagas.
And while I personally disapprove strongly of homophobic language, I would also add that the very severest of insults in the old literature do indeed refer to womanish behaviour in men. (In Njalssaga, for example, one Viking accuses another of being "the mistress of the Svinafell Troll, who uses you as a woman every ninth night.")
But bear in mind that this kind of insult was forbidden by law and usually sparked off the most hideous killings and blood feuds. So they were not flung around casually.
And while it is conceivable that dwarves might resort to such behaviour, I can't really see the elves either initiating or responding.

Frodo Baggins · 04-20-2004, 06:15 PM

I am quite glad this subjuect has been brought up. I have become quite sick of all the jokes portraying elves as sissys obsessed with hair care products. I have no problem with them being fair, I find that quite attarctive. And delicate does not necessarily mean fragile. Delicate could be refined and cultured. Defenitely Elves are wise and powerful, and also beautiful. But far from prissy.

Quick Edit here:

I also do not have a problem with long haired elves, male or female. I mean, corrct me if I be wrong but I always understood the fact that Elwe was called "Greycloak" because of the length and colour of his hair.

Vanwatholiel · 04-23-2004, 11:02 AM

Thank goodness somebody brought this up. I have been wondering, and seething at how people could say that Elves are self-centered and like to wash their hair. Elves are strong, mighty beings, granted not rugged, but fair, and delicate. Delicate does NOT mean fragile. They are full of wisdom. They are not human. I think that we are looking at them from a human point of view. To humans, they are prissy and sissy, but in Tolkiens world, they are the most wonderful beings in middle earth.

I believe that Elves deserve a lot more credit than they are getting. Gee, I am sooooo happy that somebody said something. The way the Elves, especially Legolas have been persecuted is wrong. Twisted and wrong. Sooo all things said, Legolas and the Elven species have been persecuted, but that ends now. Thank God. Thank you Imladris!

04-20-2004, 06:15 PM	#2
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	finally I am quite glad this subjuect has been brought up. I have become quite sick of all the jokes portraying elves as sissys obsessed with hair care products. I have no problem with them being fair, I find that quite attarctive. And delicate does not necessarily mean fragile. Delicate could be refined and cultured. Defenitely Elves are wise and powerful, and also beautiful. But far from prissy. Quick Edit here: I also do not have a problem with long haired elves, male or female. I mean, corrct me if I be wrong but I always understood the fact that Elwe was called "Greycloak" because of the length and colour of his hair. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game." Last edited by Frodo Baggins; 04-21-2004 at 06:05 AM. Reason: addition of more information

04-23-2004, 11:02 AM	#3
Vanwatholiel Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: In a dark corner of my mind. Don't look at me like that! I never liked you anyway. Stop staring! Posts: 40	Thank God! Thank goodness somebody brought this up. I have been wondering, and seething at how people could say that Elves are self-centered and like to wash their hair. Elves are strong, mighty beings, granted not rugged, but fair, and delicate. Delicate does NOT mean fragile. They are full of wisdom. They are not human. I think that we are looking at them from a human point of view. To humans, they are prissy and sissy, but in Tolkiens world, they are the most wonderful beings in middle earth. I believe that Elves deserve a lot more credit than they are getting. Gee, I am sooooo happy that somebody said something. The way the Elves, especially Legolas have been persecuted is wrong. Twisted and wrong. Sooo all things said, Legolas and the Elven species have been persecuted, but that ends now. Thank God. Thank you Imladris!

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

04-20-2004, 06:21 AM	#1
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Like Bethberry, I confess to faulty memory about insults in Tolkien. But, if it's any help to RPGers and others, there is an authentic tradition of insult-trading in Norse literature - which is after all where Tolkien got inspiration for dwarf names, runes and culture. It's called 'flyting', and examples can be found in the Eddas and sagas. And while I personally disapprove strongly of homophobic language, I would also add that the very severest of insults in the old literature do indeed refer to womanish behaviour in men. (In Njalssaga, for example, one Viking accuses another of being "the mistress of the Svinafell Troll, who uses you as a woman every ninth night.") But bear in mind that this kind of insult was forbidden by law and usually sparked off the most hideous killings and blood feuds. So they were not flung around casually. And while it is conceivable that dwarves might resort to such behaviour, I can't really see the elves either initiating or responding.