*Feanor,Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos*

[Aiwendil]

As I now see it, the only two good arguments against including the second prophecy of Mandos are:

1. It contradicts the passage at the end of the Valaquenta
2. It is no longer workable once the Change of the World element is worked in (because the world is then no longer flat).

Findegil wrote:

And if we have such contradictions, we know that these could be caused be differend traditions.

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I am wary of taking the easy way out and ascribing all contradictions to "different traditions" - especially since what we are constructing, at least for the Quenta Silmarillion portion, is not supposed to be an actual document but rather a pure narrative - a true account of events.

However, there does seem to be good reason in this case to explain away problem 1 with the "different traditions" bit, since in the Athrabeth note Tolkien sets that precedent. I'd say this allows us to append a second prophecy, as long as we preface it by saying that it is a Mannish myth (otherwise we are saying that it is "canonical" - i.e., true within Arda).

But I still have trouble with problem 2. In the old version, it was essential that the Silmarils were recovered and used to restore the Trees, and the mountains of Valinor were levelled so that their light shown out across Middle-earth. I don't see how this can be retained if the world is now round, and Valinor is not on it.

[Findegil]

I see two way to deal with the round earth problem and the Second Prophecy:
1. As we are working with a flat earth version of the legendarium, we can arrgue that the reproters of the Prophecy are the Númenórens which believed that the true shape of Arda was flat even after the Drowning, and that the true West was still there even if no longer physicaly reachable. Since the light of the trees was associated with the bliss of Valinor, the effect it could have would anyway be more on a psychological level than on physical one. Thus if from the true West the light shines out over the now round earth it would create the bliss the Númenóreans long for, especialy in the north-west were the staright way approached, equally if you can see it physically or not.
2. Earlier in this thread I argued, that the time adressed by the Phrophecy concerning Fëanor is after the Dagor Dagorath and deals with Arda healed and not with Arda marred. Since in the Dagor Dagorath Arda marred would be destroyed, I would think that Arda healed or re-made would be a revival of the flat world of old, since that was clearly nearer to the first thoughts of Iluvatar, which anybody would then understand and interpret in the second music in which Arda re-made would take shape. In such a scenario it would be an act of redemption on Maedhros side to lay aside his ruthless claim on the Silmarillis and give them to Yavanna. And for Fëanor it wouuld be the uttermost redemption to lay hands on his own creation an break them for the benefit of all the inhabitains of Arda re-made.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

It seems to be my lot to bump this thread up again.
My re-read had brought forth some observations:

- In my last post I brought in Maedhros as the one how brought the Silmarils to Yavanna. This is clearly outdated since it is based on the S were Feanor palyed no part.

- Im my editing for the VE I toke the part of "the doom of men" and the deletion in the last §§, but I did not take up the addition of Beren. This was only by accident not by intention. It will be emanded in the Version below.

- Also we have as jet not done any editing to bring in the numenorean origin or tradition of the prophecey. I will try that out below.

- Further Aiwendil had complains about the end of the Valaquenta. When I am right we had as jet taken the Valaquenta we produced as the document in Middle-Earth. That would give us a way out of the trouble here: If the Valaquenta was produced in the First Age by some Elf, he would have had no knowledge of the Second Prophecy. Thus an Elf like Finrod would have no legend of the End of the world as is stated in the Valaquenta. On the other hand if the Valaquenta is contardictory to the second Phorphecy it is even stronger against the Ainulindale since there we have also a legend of the end of the world, and against the Athrabeth were such a legend is more or less developed by Finrod.

So fare, what I remeber of my re-read. Here is the Version of the Phrophecy That I would use:

VE-21 The Second Prophecy of Mandos
{Thus spake }Mandos[ spake] in prophecy, when the {Gods}[Valar] sat in judgement in Valinor, and {the}[this] rumour of his words was whispered among all the {Elves}[Men] of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But {Eärendel} [Eärendil] shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, and Beren Camlost, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for {Eärendel} [Eärendil] shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Kementári; and he will break them and with their fire Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. {In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.}

I changed the first § bring it accordance with the statment that the tardition was of manish origin with as small as change as I could think of.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Findegil proposed:

{Thus spake }Mandos[ spake] in prophecy, when the {Gods}[Valar] sat in judgement in Valinor, and {the}[this] rumour of his words was whispered among all the {Elves}[Men] of the West.

The problem with this is that we are still stating that Mandos said these things, regardless of whether we then say that his words are remembered by Elves or by Men. What is needed is a change so that we say only that it is said by some Men that he spoke this prophecy.

One way is to preface the whole thing with a completely fabricated statement of the sort: "Among Men a tale is told of the Second Prophecy of Mandos, and that tale is here given." I don't really like that, as it is, again, a complete fabrication. Another way, very similar, would be to replace the first sentence: "It is said by some Men that Mandos spake thus in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor." However, we still have a problem with excessive creative writing.

Incidentally, I don't see the point of the deletion of "thus spake" and replacement with "spake" in your revision.

[Maédhros]

From the Later Quentas

Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.

The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V.333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255).

The question for me is does this means that the Prophecy actually dissapears from the Legendarium or only in the lore of the Elves.
As it has been posted before, there were prophecies by mannish traditions regarding the end.

One way is to preface the whole thing with a completely fabricated statement of the sort: "Among Men a tale is told of the Second Prophecy of Mandos, and that tale is here given." I don't really like that, as it is, again, a complete fabrication. Another way, very similar, would be to replace the first sentence: "It is said by some Men that Mandos spake thus in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor." However, we still have a problem with excessive creative writing.

With the risk involved in this, I would favor not using the Prophecy, unless both of you think that an alteration of the kind that Aiwendil made is acceptable.

[Findegil]

The motivation of my editing the fisrt sentence was ecaxtly to get the tradtion of the pophecy a manish one. In the original text the it is stated that the words reported are the what Mandos said ("Thus spake Mandos ..."). In contarst to this my version reports only that this is what the Man of the West remembered about the second Phrophecy ("... this rumour of his words was whispered among all the Men of the West").
I must addmiss that this is very fine spun. But I think it does work as well as any created text that could only make the same thing. We have only this version of the phrphecy and since it is reported by man it is doubtfull. So how can it be more doubtfull than being a romour whispersed about men?

Or is your point that we still report as a fact that Mandos gave some Phrophecy what so ever at this occasion? If that is the case we need some intorduction other than I have tried to give.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Findegil: Your version would begin:

Mandos spake in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor, and this rumour of his words was whispered among all the Men of the West.

This has exactly the same meaning as:

Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor, and this rumour of his words was whispered among all the Men of the West.

So in this version Mandos definitely speaks a prophecy; and what follows is in fact the rumour of his words that is whispered among Men.

What we need is a version where according to Men Mandos spoke this prophecy.