Ecthelion vs 100 trolls??? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gothmog · 05-07-2004, 10:04 AM

No, I wasn't thinking of Hurin. Actually this question popped up in my head when I was reading an other thread, the one about the strength of a troll (Just how hard is it to kill a Troll?). Somebody wrote something about Ecthelion killing 100 trolls, but they weren't sure there either...

Olorin, are you sure they wasn't as powerful as the "Moria-Balrog"? And maybe there wasn't armies but if you read Sil. you get the impression that they were more than 3...maybe even more than 7.

Regarding their strength: in the beginning of sil. (Valaquenta) Tolkien writes (translated from swedish, please ignore my errors)

Quote:

And terrible amongst these deamons were valaraukar, the scourge of fire which in Middle-Earth were called Balrogs, deamons of fear

(isn't deamons of might???)
It's also said that they joined Melkor before Arda was created. I don't think the Moria-Balrog was different or more powerful than the others, but the warriors were more powerful at the time of tha battle of Gondolin.

Olorin_TLA · 05-07-2004, 10:19 AM

It makes sense to assume Durin's Bane was as powerful as other Balrogs; when Tolkien was revising the Silmarillion after writing LotR, he crossed out a mention ottwo of their being hosts of Balrogs, and wrote that there shouldn't be assumed to be more than 3 or 7. Also, in his writings about Glorfindel, one of the last things he wrote, he crossed out that he killed a Balrog and replaced it with "Demon", and contiuned to refer to it as a Demon and not a Balrog, anohter indication that the Balrogs had become much more powerful and rare in the post-LotR Silmarillion.

Gothmog · 05-08-2004, 06:40 AM

So it's really a question of what version you want to believe in: the original or the post-LotR... I stick with the version where Glorfindel killed a BALROG and no lesser demon

Otherwise, it must have been a powerful demon. It is said in Sil. that many songs were wrote about Glorfindel's fight with the-whatever-it-was and to make a fight that important, you need two great warriors

Son of Númenor · 05-08-2004, 06:58 AM

I can't think of much else new to add to this debate, so I will provide you with the added insight of a few respected Barrow-downers. Heren-Istarion's post #33, in particular, helped me to understand the many facets of the general Balrog debate in its entirety. It certainly seems to be one of the more oft-contradictory and open-ended discussions contained in Tolkien's works.

NightKnight · 05-09-2004, 01:28 AM

Gothmog, "Tales of the ME" is called UT, or Unfinished Tales, in English.

Gothmog · 05-09-2004, 07:33 AM

Yeah, thanks NightKnight, I remembered that a few days ago... thought of editing my post, but it slipped my mind...Thanks anyway, I really I had all the books in the english version. As it is now, I've only got The Hobbit, LoTR and Sil. in english, so I have some problems quoting UT...

Speaking of troubles quoting, this is (I think) the correct quote from Valaquenta, not the gothmog-translation seen above

(didn't have my eng. Sil. with me when posting that)

Quote:

Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

05-07-2004, 10:19 AM	#2
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	It makes sense to assume Durin's Bane was as powerful as other Balrogs; when Tolkien was revising the Silmarillion after writing LotR, he crossed out a mention ottwo of their being hosts of Balrogs, and wrote that there shouldn't be assumed to be more than 3 or 7. Also, in his writings about Glorfindel, one of the last things he wrote, he crossed out that he killed a Balrog and replaced it with "Demon", and contiuned to refer to it as a Demon and not a Balrog, anohter indication that the Balrogs had become much more powerful and rare in the post-LotR Silmarillion. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

05-08-2004, 06:58 AM	#4
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 515	Wingin' It I can't think of much else new to add to this debate, so I will provide you with the added insight of a few respected Barrow-downers. Heren-Istarion's post #33, in particular, helped me to understand the many facets of the general Balrog debate in its entirety. It certainly seems to be one of the more oft-contradictory and open-ended discussions contained in Tolkien's works. __________________ "This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement." Last edited by Son of Númenor; 05-08-2004 at 07:02 AM.

05-09-2004, 01:28 AM	#5
NightKnight Lost among the Stars Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden) Posts: 2,690	Gothmog, "Tales of the ME" is called UT, or Unfinished Tales, in English. __________________ There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.

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05-08-2004, 06:40 AM	#3
Gothmog Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Where I lay my head is home Posts: 421	So it's really a question of what version you want to believe in: the original or the post-LotR... I stick with the version where Glorfindel killed a BALROG and no lesser demon Otherwise, it must have been a powerful demon. It is said in Sil. that many songs were wrote about Glorfindel's fight with the-whatever-it-was and to make a fight that important, you need two great warriors __________________ Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...