Arwen's Grave Choice

[The Saucepan Man]

There are some interesting thoughts on the issues raised above in these threads:

Why did Arwen do that?

and

Who buries Arwen?

That is not to say, of course, that the discussion should not continue here. I just thought that it might be helpful to link to some previous threads that have touched on these issue.

In the first thread linked to, there is a fascinating exploration of why Arwen would wish to leave her family to die alone in a fading forest. I, for one, found it quite difficult to understand why whatever it was that led her there should be stronger than her maternal bond with her children. On this issue, I would recommend Mr Underhill's excellent analysis at post #35.

Edit: Helen, you beat me to it while I was reviewing some of the wonderful posts on that thread!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Moderator's note: Though it is a good idea to read those past threads to see what was discussed, this one can continue. There may be new aspects and the discussion may take a different direction, so carry on!

[Bêthberry]

That old thread is a wonderful thing to behold! I remember it fondly, as the elves remember their past days. Truth be told, I also remember wondering with some degree of amusement how long Saucepan had been a father; I knew that Squatter was not; I can say this now: I know Sauce better!

Yet, thoughts and life goes on and so I would like to add something here that I did not to that discussion: proof that Estelyn need not close this thread just yet.

Tolkien's passage reverberates for me with something akin to musical harmony. There is an allusion which made me favour Rimbaud's idea that Arwen's passing belongs to the expression of theme and literary type rather than to psychological reality. It is the similarity between Tolkien's description of Arwen's passing and Psalm 103, verses 15 and 16. Helen has copied Tolkien's description from the Appendix into the first post here. Compare that with the King James' Bible:

As for man, his days are as grass; as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.

For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.

I see this as suggesting that Arwen's role in Lord of the Rings is to bridge that very difference beteen the elves and the doom of men. It is, for me, a poignant symbolic role.

[mark12_30]

Bethberry, that's food for meditation...

A couple more thoughts simmering:

#1. Did Luthien have a grave? (Did Beren?) I can't remember (No Sil here at work.)

#2. What is it about the removal of her grave to a "green" place? As opposed to a stony place, Gondor. There's some ontrast here between elf and man (there must be) but it's ... not... clear yet.

Her relocation also strikes me as so very odd, because I am so used to the (Christian) concept of husband and wife being buried side-by-side. Why? Because they are *waiting for the resurrection.* Who do you want to be the first person that you see when you are raised from the dead? Your beloved, of course. It makes sense. Hence, JRR and Edith are buried Side By Side, (As Beren and Luthien... hmmm, see question #1.) So, of course, are all my (known) ancestors, buried side by side with their spouses. It's a very common thing.

But I guess it's not all that common in Middle-Earth. Firstly, there's nothing said about a resurrection; the focus is on "Beyond the Circles Of The World." But besides that, the Kings seem to be buried alone. Where did their wives end up? (cue Lush & Bethberry's lament for unsung women.) Likewise in Rohan, there is no indication that the king's burial mounds included their wives.

I understand if one dies on the battlefield. But such is not the case here.

Come to that, what do you *do* with a dead elf? Aside from leaving them simmering in the dead marshes, I can't recall any elven gravesites.

Further thoughts: Where in the Trilogy is there ever mention of a woman's grave? What about the Sil? Even Niniel leaps to her death; I don't recall a mention of a grave??

Did Tolkien perhaps have some aversion to thinking about a woman's death, or a woman's grave? Is it connected with the matricide issue, I wonder? Or have I just forgotten a list of women's graveites? (Entirely possible.)

[The Saucepan Man]

Come to that, what do you *do* with a dead elf?

Tecnically, I suppose, Arwen was not an Elf. But the point is well taken. Perhaps, since they no longer required their physical bodies when their spirits went to Mandos, the Elves practised cremation. Certainly, as they were immortal, they would have no logical reason to practice ancestor worship, whereas Men, being mortal and having no conception of what happens to their spirits after death, might well be inclined to do so. And isn't ancestor worship the original basis for marking burial sites?

Of course, there's no reference (as far as I am aware) to Hobbit burial sites either (save that Merry and Pippin were, I think, buried alongside King Elessar).

Further thoughts: Where in the Trilogy is there ever mention of a woman's grave? What about the Sil?

Didn't Turin come across his sister lying on Morwen's burial mound (sorry, no book to hand either)? Or did the mound simply mark the spot where she died?

Having said all that, the only burial sites that I can recall being mentioned are those of Kings and Stewards. We never hear of graves for "commoners" (or Hobbits - see above), with the exception, I suppose, of those who fell at Helm's Deep. Perhaps only the royal (and battlefield) burial sites are mentioned because they are the only ones relevant to the story.

[Son of Númenor]

Didn't Turin come across his sister lying on Morwen's burial mound (sorry, no book to hand either)? Or did the mound simply mark the spot where she died?

I believe he did, as well as the burial mound of Finduilas. On one or both of them (I haven't got the Sil with me either, so I could not tell you which one or if it was both), there were markings commemorating the life of the buried.

Good point about ancestor worship, Mr. Saucepan Man. I agree that Elvish immortality would not necessitate the marked, ritualistic burial of a deceased Elf, but I doubt that they were cremated; it does not seem a particularly Elvish practice in nature. I think it is possible that Elves could be laid to rest in the fashion of the Kings of Gondor, but that perhaps their hroar 'fade' over time until they are no longer detectable to anyone living in mortal lands. This is merely an unsubstantiated suggestion, but it seems somewhat in line with Tolkien's beliefs about Elves.

[Bêthberry]

*coughs* Barrow Downs *coughs*

Tomb rifles the barrow for the knives made by the Men of Westernesse, to give to the hobbits, and he also takes some kind of token or piece of jewellry for Goldberry, saying,

Here is a pretty toy for Tom and his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her.

Of course, the barrow could be a place to stash treasures and not necessarily the repose of a person's body with all her earthly effects.

"Mum" still hasn't handed that down to me yet.

[mark12_30]

The Barrow Downs occurred to me, but I didn't recall any feminine mention of burial. ...getting hazy... time I reread the trilogy.

There was the brooch, but there were all sorts of treasures there; and I thought they were sort of gathered by the wights...? Sounds silly now that I type it out. I guess I thought of the Wights as sort of like Dragons, resting on a hoard...

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Didn't Turin come across his sister lying on Morwen's burial mound (sorry, no book to hand either)? Or did the mound simply mark the spot where she died?

Actually, Hurin came across Morwen when she was sitting by the mound. Both Turin and Nienor died before Morwen.

[Lush]

Great thread, Helen.

My compliments on the Biblical allusion, Beth. It succeeded in making me blubber a bit at one in the morning last night (the roommate was perplexed).

Didn't Arwen and Aragorn become engaged in Lorien? It would make sense for her to die there then, in a final earthly gesture to her love, her grave becoming a sort of monument for it, lonely and forgotten as it is.

Also, the very idea that Arwen should give up her immortality for the love of her life would suggest to me that she was meant to die soon after Aragorn himself was dead, as if there was a bond there so great that these two could not be parted by death for long.

Though I would agree that the thematic nature of her passing is divorced from what Bethberry refers to as "psychological reality," the kind in which we would most likely see her taking comfort in her children.

[The Saucepan Man]

Doh! Of course Turin died before his mother. Although I'd forgotten those Hobbit and Elven graves. The perils of posting without the books to hand. At least its always guaranteed here that a knowledgable Downer or two will come along to complete the picture.

And, to take my part in doing so, I will mention Balin's tomb in Khazad-Dum. The Dwarves too appear to have taken the time to mark the graves of their dead when they could, even under the stressful circumstances that the last survivors of Balin's party must have endured.

The point remains, though, that only the mortal races seem to have "celebrated" death by marking the graves of their dead. Then again, maybe we just never hear of the cemetary just behind the Last Homely House.