Arwen's Grave Choice

[mark12_30]

My use of the word ghost was focused on this part here:

Frodo felt that he was in a timeless land that did not fade or change or fall into forgetfulness. When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlorien.

This strikes me more that "time is translucent" there, rather than that the place is haunted so to speak. I don't imagine Aragorn's spirit going from Gondor to Cerin Amroth and waiting for her. What I do imagine, is that Arwen might return there hoping for a glimpse through the fabric of time-- like Aragorn had as he held the flower, and said "Arwen Vanimelda, Namarie." Perhaps the word "ghost" has too many applications. A rend (or transparency, better) in the fabric of time is more what i had in mind.

[The Saucepan Man]

... or perhaps it was just that the power of the place, and in Aragorn's case its significance, was such that, when they left it, they still wandered it in their dreams and their thoughts.

~Saucepan the rationalist~

[Bêthberry]

Yes, indeed, Saucepan. Thank you for reminding us that one interpretation is not privileged over another.

~Bethberry the fabulist ~

[mark12_30]

In a polite and non-comittal sort of way i'd like to revisit the translucent-time idea. If Frodo sensed that time was different there; if Frodo knew that he would "be there" even after he was gone, then did Arwen return to Cerin Amroth in the hopes that Aragorn might still "be there" although he was (genuinely) gone? (in a memory sense, or a spiritual sense, or in a time-translucent sense... or other possibilities perhaps...) Did she go hoping simply to hear an echo?

Was Cerin Amroth hallowed because of Amroth or because of Nenya or because of something else? In other words, once Nenya was gone-- was the timelessnes (or time transparency/ translucency) gone also? If Frodo had returned there, would he have felt the same thing he did during his winter there; or would it have just been another forest with nice trees? Was Arwen's final journey fruitless and disappointing, or were the echoes still there?

[davem]

Helen

Quote:'If Frodo had returned there, would he have felt the same thing he did during his winter there; or would it have just been another forest with nice trees? Was Arwen's final journey fruitless and disappointing, or were the echoes still there?'

I'm not sure its a question of 'echoes' - because this brings in the concept of serial time. In A Question of Time Flieger uses Dunne's theories, which influenced Tolkien greatly, to show how from the perspective of eternity, all 'time', all an individual's life, may be accessible from a 'higher' or spiritual perspective - so Frodo's 'spiritual' self could observe any point in his life - I'm uncomfortable to push this idea, because it endangers the 'poetry'.

All moments are aspects or fragments of eternity, & as such, are in a sense 'eternally' present. Arwen & Aragorn are 'always' in that moment on Cerin Amroth. They never leave it - of course, on another level, from another perspective, they do leave it & their lives continue. But the moment is eternal & never ends - it can be accessed at any time as a memory, without having to run through their whole story mentally to get up to that point. How come? How come it is possible to pass into that point alone, unconnected to the rest of the story, as Bethberry can pick the quote from the book, give us that single moment, without having to quote the whole book? And when we read the quote, we see them walking there, & only that. Its like Niggle's leaf, which ends up in the museum, & exists as a painting in its own right, detatched from its context, but eternally perfect in its own right. Perhaps all eternity is simply a sequence of such moments, which exist outside of serial time. Lorien itself is a 'moment' outside time, & even though in serial time it 'was not, had been, is not', each 'moment' of its existence is forever 'present'

I think that there is a danger of trying to fit eternity into some 'theory'. On some level, which I can't put into words, I know what Tolkien is saying. It seems obvious, if I don't analyse it, that Frodo will always walk on Cerin Amroth - indeed it would seem 'wrong' to think that he didn't. Its the same with Aragorn & Arwen. How could they not - perhaps Arwen, still thinking like an Elf, but perhaps also having lost the capacity to 'remember' as she once could, or confused by grief, thought she was somehow returning to that moment - or perhaps she did return there, & was again as she was when she walked there with Aragorn.

Such moments seem to exist without the necessity for context. Our lives pass without notice mostly, but sometimes we 'awake', stepping off the beaten track, into eternity, & the moment never ends, never begins, really, because it 'is', & so always will be.

I'm struck by the feelings of the Fellowship, as they leave Lorien:

As they passed her they turned & their eyes watched her slowly floating away from them. for so it seemed to them: Lorien was slipping backward, like a bright ship masted with enchanted trees, sailing on to forgotten shores, while they sat helpless upon the margin of the grey & leafless world'.

They have left Lorien, & returned to the 'beaten track'. Yet Lorien for them is not a geographical location, it is their memory, & that memory includes their own presence there - they will never be able to remember it objectively, without their own presence there, so, in memory (at the least) they will always 'be' there. Frodo's memory of Lorien will always be a memory of being there himself, and the emotions which arise will be the emotions he felt while there. And when we remember the story, we remember it with Frodo & the Fellowship present. For Frodo 'Lorien' is not a 'place', it is his time there. For Arwen & Aragorn it must be the same - but their memories will not come back to them as blur of events over many visits, but of individual moments, arising at different times.

And yet, is it 'more than memory' we are speaking of? Is memory more than a replaying of what was? Could it be that 'memory' is an 'Elvish' thing for us too, & that when we 'remember' we are in some way back where we were,back in that moment? The moment has passed into eternity, & so become eternally present for us?

How can Frodo not walk forever on Cerin Amroth? How can Aragorn & Arwen not walk there forever, hand in hand? Eternity won't go away, & everything in it is forever.

(I'm still struggling with what I want to say here, & it probably doesn't make too much sense.)

[mark12_30]

I think there's also something else to consider that weaves into all this.

I strongly suspect that Aragorn's abilities in Osanwe (Black Gate & Mouth of Sauron; Houses of Healing.... ) were as a result of his relationship with Arwen. From the appendix:

So it stood afterwards between Elrond and Aragorn, and they spoke no more of this matter, but Aragorn went forth again to danger and toil. And while the world darkened and fear fell on Middle-earth, as the power of Sauron grew and the Barad-dûr rose ever taller and stronger, Arwen remained in Rivendell, and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought; and in hope she made for him a great and kingly standard, such as only one might display who claimed the lordship of the Númenoreans and the inheritance of Elendil.

Likely, she was the reader, he was the open book-- at first, until his skills grew. But all during his long journeys, her mind was aware of his.

I suspect that there were very few times-- from their betrothal onward-- that she was unaware of his presence somewhere in Middle-Earth. I wonder whether, when he died, she lost touch with his thoughts for the first time in over 140 years.

If that was the case then no wonder the light was gone from her eyes; and it's very plausible to me that she went to Lorien seeking an echo of his presence there. I also suspect that she did not find what she sought, and so, finally followed him into the unknown.

[Guinevere]

All moments are aspects or fragments of eternity, & as such, are in a sense 'eternally' present. Arwen & Aragorn are 'always' in that moment on Cerin Amroth

Davem, I think in your last post you express exactly what it meant for Tolkien, because I was immediately reminded of a letter he wrote shortly after the death of his wife:

....these never touched our depths nor dimmed our memories of our youthful love. Forever (especially when alone) we still met in the woodland glade, and went hand in hand many times to escape the shadow of imminent death before our last parting.