"Morgoth's Ring" or Sauron's Ring? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

05-29-2004, 11:01 PM

Angry Hill Troll

You make some very interesting views. I also think that the will of Morgoth was in the One Ring, or at least in the making of it. The will of Morgoth was in all evil things, so therefore it must be in the One Ring. Sauron was indeed a Maia however, and had power over many earthly things, so I wouldn't put it past his powers. He was the dominator of wills, and the One Ring was his guide in doing so.

Concerning the three Elven rings, I'm not sure where I stand. Perhaps they were a part of the Valar but perhaps you have just run into a timely coincidence (which either way is very fun in imagining). If you look at it from a simple standpoint though, it seems you would be correct. Manwe, lord of the air, would indeed have a part in all things of the air, would he not? So how could he NOT have a part in the elven ring wrought with the mere power of the element of the air? It would therefore make Manwe not the ruler of the skies if he could not (or did not) govern all things that were related to the sky. Aule isn't necessarily the ruler of fire however, not specifically anyway, but it still makes sense. Aule was a master of crafts if I'm not mistaken, but therefore he would indeed have mastery over fire.

Concering the quote from Elrond saying that the Valar would not let the ring come into the west doesn't justify hardly anything, for the Blessed Relm was to be free from all evil, whether it be an orc or the One Ring makes little difference. It was the fact that that the ring was evil (in my opinion) and wrought from evil.

However you claim that Sauron increased his power so to speak with the making of the ring. It seems not so to me. To me it seems as if the ring was more a weapon than a 'buffer' so to speak. Morgoth didn't need to make a ring because no one could withstand him anyway. And Sauron had great power, and was not made to perish on the earth for he was a Maia which no man could vanquish completely. He could however, dominate people's will, and thus he did with the One Ring. It doesn't seem to me it made him physically stronger.

The last conflict between your theories that I seem to catch is that Sauron's ring was more powerful than any of the Elven rings, so for this to happen the ring would have to have come from Morgoth somehow (because only Morgoth was stronger than the Valar) and it's obvious that Sauron wasn't stronger than the Valar, or even mightiest of the Maia (as proven when he was overtaken by Huan). But now the problem in this is that the Elves made the rings, not Sauron, and it seems very unlikely that somehow Morgoth could have possesed the minds or hands of Celebrimbor (the maker of the three) and it is said that Sauron never possesed the three rings, which leads me to think upon these rings as powers of the Valar, as you have said before.

So here we are back at the beginning of the delima, but it proved a fun ride nonetheless and I would love to write more about it in posts to come

drigel · 06-04-2004, 01:28 PM

Its seems to me a question at this point would be to ask:

After his physical form being destroyed at Numenor, how much of the power of the Ring did Sauron have to "use" to remain a potent threat to the material world?

Or, put another way, was there any sigificant change in the Ring itself pre and post destruction of Sauron's physical body? Or was the "usage" of the power changed?

IMO, the more Morgoth inserted his power into his "ring", the less powerfull his physicall entity became. But the power of his ring was still there, at least mainly there. The breaking of Beleriand would have (mabye?) decreased his power. If Morgoth was not captured and cast out into the void, the influence of his power in Arda could still be tapped, or manipulated by him.

Sauron, after the sinking of Numenor, vitally depended on the Ring's power to assert influence in ME. So, Sauron's Ring by the 2nd age appears to be the more powerfull. But only (again IMO) because of the dire need of it by Sauron. The loss of his Ring demonstrates this to me.

06-07-2004, 07:07 AM

Question 1) What happened to the rings that were given to the Dwarves that weren't consumed by dragon fire?

Question 2) How did the One Ring work in connection with the 3 Elvish rings? If Sauron never had a part in the creation of the 3 Elvish rings, how would he have gained dominion over them when he recovered the One Ring (or is this just an incorrect assumption)?

Ardamir the Blessed · 06-26-2004, 06:55 PM

All the Seven and the Nine were identical in the beginning, or at least very similar. They were not called 'the Seven' and 'the Nine' in the beginning; that was only after Sauron had dealt seven of them out to Dwarves and nine to Men. But Sauron, before he dealt them out, perhaps modified the seven that were given to Dwarves to suit Dwarves specifically, and likewise the other nine to suit Men. The Three were also similar to the other 16 in the beginning but they were more powerful, and the other 16 were tainted (this perhaps implies that they were modified) later by Sauron, unlike the Three.

senser81: The Three were still partly made by Sauron's knowledge since he had teached the Mírdain, therefore they still contained his secret 'code'.

Findegil · 06-27-2004, 09:13 AM

The Rings were all equally made for being used by Elves, but they were different from the beginning. In the unfinshed tales we can read about the fall of Eregion and when Sauron captured Celbrimbor in the house uf the Gwaith i Mirdain, Celebrimbor revealed easilie were the nine were stored and under torture he gave away the hidding places of the seven, but about the three he said nothing. That does mean that Rings were already grouped in the same numbers before Sauron toke them.

Respectfully
Findegil

Ardamir the Blessed · 06-27-2004, 03:41 PM

Findegil:

It seems that you are right, unless the text, being written after the war, just speaks of the Nine and the Seven in that way, even though they were not grouped at that time yet. Then Sauron must have instructed the Mírdain to split them up like this, and probably make seven Rings with certain characteristics and nine with certain characteristics different to those of the seven, even though all 16 were going to be used by Elves (or so the Mírdain thought). Or, the Mírdain thought that nine Rings were going to be used in a certain way and/or a certain type of Elves, and seven in another way and/or by another type of Elves and made the Rings according to this.

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05-29-2004, 11:01 PM	#1
Twilight One Guest Posts: n/a	Angry Hill Troll You make some very interesting views. I also think that the will of Morgoth was in the One Ring, or at least in the making of it. The will of Morgoth was in all evil things, so therefore it must be in the One Ring. Sauron was indeed a Maia however, and had power over many earthly things, so I wouldn't put it past his powers. He was the dominator of wills, and the One Ring was his guide in doing so. Concerning the three Elven rings, I'm not sure where I stand. Perhaps they were a part of the Valar but perhaps you have just run into a timely coincidence (which either way is very fun in imagining). If you look at it from a simple standpoint though, it seems you would be correct. Manwe, lord of the air, would indeed have a part in all things of the air, would he not? So how could he NOT have a part in the elven ring wrought with the mere power of the element of the air? It would therefore make Manwe not the ruler of the skies if he could not (or did not) govern all things that were related to the sky. Aule isn't necessarily the ruler of fire however, not specifically anyway, but it still makes sense. Aule was a master of crafts if I'm not mistaken, but therefore he would indeed have mastery over fire. Concering the quote from Elrond saying that the Valar would not let the ring come into the west doesn't justify hardly anything, for the Blessed Relm was to be free from all evil, whether it be an orc or the One Ring makes little difference. It was the fact that that the ring was evil (in my opinion) and wrought from evil. However you claim that Sauron increased his power so to speak with the making of the ring. It seems not so to me. To me it seems as if the ring was more a weapon than a 'buffer' so to speak. Morgoth didn't need to make a ring because no one could withstand him anyway. And Sauron had great power, and was not made to perish on the earth for he was a Maia which no man could vanquish completely. He could however, dominate people's will, and thus he did with the One Ring. It doesn't seem to me it made him physically stronger. The last conflict between your theories that I seem to catch is that Sauron's ring was more powerful than any of the Elven rings, so for this to happen the ring would have to have come from Morgoth somehow (because only Morgoth was stronger than the Valar) and it's obvious that Sauron wasn't stronger than the Valar, or even mightiest of the Maia (as proven when he was overtaken by Huan). But now the problem in this is that the Elves made the rings, not Sauron, and it seems very unlikely that somehow Morgoth could have possesed the minds or hands of Celebrimbor (the maker of the three) and it is said that Sauron never possesed the three rings, which leads me to think upon these rings as powers of the Valar, as you have said before. So here we are back at the beginning of the delima, but it proved a fun ride nonetheless and I would love to write more about it in posts to come

06-04-2004, 01:28 PM	#2
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	Its seems to me a question at this point would be to ask: After his physical form being destroyed at Numenor, how much of the power of the Ring did Sauron have to "use" to remain a potent threat to the material world? Or, put another way, was there any sigificant change in the Ring itself pre and post destruction of Sauron's physical body? Or was the "usage" of the power changed? IMO, the more Morgoth inserted his power into his "ring", the less powerfull his physicall entity became. But the power of his ring was still there, at least mainly there. The breaking of Beleriand would have (mabye?) decreased his power. If Morgoth was not captured and cast out into the void, the influence of his power in Arda could still be tapped, or manipulated by him. Sauron, after the sinking of Numenor, vitally depended on the Ring's power to assert influence in ME. So, Sauron's Ring by the 2nd age appears to be the more powerfull. But only (again IMO) because of the dire need of it by Sauron. The loss of his Ring demonstrates this to me.

06-07-2004, 07:07 AM	#3
senser81 Guest Posts: n/a	Question 1) What happened to the rings that were given to the Dwarves that weren't consumed by dragon fire? Question 2) How did the One Ring work in connection with the 3 Elvish rings? If Sauron never had a part in the creation of the 3 Elvish rings, how would he have gained dominion over them when he recovered the One Ring (or is this just an incorrect assumption)?

06-26-2004, 06:55 PM	#4
Ardamir the Blessed Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 37	All the Seven and the Nine were identical in the beginning, or at least very similar. They were not called 'the Seven' and 'the Nine' in the beginning; that was only after Sauron had dealt seven of them out to Dwarves and nine to Men. But Sauron, before he dealt them out, perhaps modified the seven that were given to Dwarves to suit Dwarves specifically, and likewise the other nine to suit Men. The Three were also similar to the other 16 in the beginning but they were more powerful, and the other 16 were tainted (this perhaps implies that they were modified) later by Sauron, unlike the Three. senser81: The Three were still partly made by Sauron's knowledge since he had teached the Mírdain, therefore they still contained his secret 'code'.

06-27-2004, 09:13 AM	#5
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	The Rings were all equally made for being used by Elves, but they were different from the beginning. In the unfinshed tales we can read about the fall of Eregion and when Sauron captured Celbrimbor in the house uf the Gwaith i Mirdain, Celebrimbor revealed easilie were the nine were stored and under torture he gave away the hidding places of the seven, but about the three he said nothing. That does mean that Rings were already grouped in the same numbers before Sauron toke them. Respectfully Findegil

06-27-2004, 03:41 PM	#6
Ardamir the Blessed Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 37	Findegil: It seems that you are right, unless the text, being written after the war, just speaks of the Nine and the Seven in that way, even though they were not grouped at that time yet. Then Sauron must have instructed the Mírdain to split them up like this, and probably make seven Rings with certain characteristics and nine with certain characteristics different to those of the seven, even though all 16 were going to be used by Elves (or so the Mírdain thought). Or, the Mírdain thought that nine Rings were going to be used in a certain way and/or a certain type of Elves, and seven in another way and/or by another type of Elves and made the Rings according to this.