Dragons and Balrogs

[Voralphion]

Oh, and slightly OT, the Valar never participated in the War of Wrath, IMO. Their leader was a maia, and it is constantly referred to as the "Forces of the Valar", and never "the Valar". It was comprised of Elves+Maiar, without any Valar

Actually, Tulkas, Aule participated in the war of the wrath. It was Tulkas who wrestled with Morgoth, and Aule who bound him with the chain. Also there is probably a good chance that Orome also participated in it, as I don't think the huntsman of the Valar would want to be left out of such a battle against the forces of Morgoth.

[gorthaur_cruel]

You're confusing that with the other battle the Valar made against Morgoth, right after the Elves awoke in Cuivienen. There, Tulkas wrestled with Morgoth, and bound him with Angainor, the chain of Aule. The War of Wrath is the battle that took place after Earendil sailed to Valinor.

Source? The silmarillion.

Of the Coming of the Elves, Chapter 3 of the Silmarillion

But at last the gates of Utumno were broken and the halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face; and he was bound with the chain Angainor that Aule had wrought, and led captive; and the world had peace for a long time

OTOH, the War of Wrath never directly mentions the Valar.

[The Saucepan Man]

Gandalf was defeated in The Hobbit by a few wargs, and was about to commit suicide, taking several wolves with him to death. That same Gandalf the Grey defeated a balrog, so it stands to reason that a bunch of wargs are enough to take down a balrog.

Carcharoth was a wolf that Morgoth put his power into, and it grew strong. It killed Huan (and got killed himself in the process, but my point still stands), who had defeated Sauron, the greatest maia of Morgoth. Thus, Carcharoth, a non-Maia, is more powerful than Sauron.

Where one being kills or defeats another, it does not necessarily follow that the victorious being is more powerful than the defeated being. If that were the case, it would follow that Bard was more powerful than Smaug, Eowyn and Merry (combined) were more powerful than the Witch King and Pippin was more powerful than the Great Troll Chief at the Black Gate. Much depends on the circumstances, which can allow a weaker being to defeat a stronger one.

[drigel]

Gorthaur,

You bring up some good points! I think that you have a strong argument if you consider 1st generation dragons only. And if the consideration were of the Balrogs as the kind originally drafted (see above - balrog vs Balrog). In my first post I had the "2nd draft" Balrog in mind. Mabye 4-6 in total. Original Maia's who were spirits of flame.

I would like to see some canon as to the original dragons were actually "hand reared" by Morgoth as he did for Carcharoth, or were they
(A) trapped spirits inhabiting an already existing species of flying lizard ,
(B) or, what i think is: The already existing flying lizard species (mabye some already advanced to the point of speach and cunning minds) were taken and corrupted by M, to the point - like orcs - where each subsequent generation is as evil as the prior.

SPM has great points too so lets just break down the attributes of each like has done before. The battle Gorthaur references could be viewed, as set in a contex that a nonMaia actually beats a maia, is technically correct if one was keeping score, but Huan didnt kill Sauron. He did have him in what would be called a hard check.. lol But wasnt Sauron in the form of a vampire>? No books at work... sigh
Are there any other examples?

The only advantage i see a dragon has over a Balrog is:
flight (but again the debate still rages on that lol),
and, at least for the major dragons, the cunning mind.

That may be all they needed to win if one were to put those 2 together in a collosium... or mabye not - if environmental factors were taken away, and its just mano e mano - i would still lay down the ducks for the Balrog winning on brute evil strength.

One more point on the subject. In The Silmarillion, it happens to mention that, of all the creatures of evil, it was only dragons that Sauron could not control. Hell, that sounds like dragons are pretty damn powerful to me. And if he himself could not control them, there is some allusion to the possibility that they were immune to the insinuations of the Ruling Ring, which is most definately saying something.
Of course, since dragons have that bit of magpie urge of theirs, they might have taken it anyway if they'd found it.
Another thing, I wonder- could dragons pick and choose their alligiences? In one of the Lost Tales, Farmer Giles of Ham, the green dragon Chrysophylax becomes friends with a mere, rather puny, human farmer (or as much of a friend as a dragon could make himself), and, in outlining for future stories (which were never written) mentions this green dragon protecting and even rescuing him, which are qualities one would assign to more benevolent creatures.
In the words of a friend, following this question:
"Well, some are better or worse than others."
Makes you think....

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I know the topic is specifically about who was greater, but its still interesting to talk about who was more evil.

The point that Sauron was not able to completely control the Dragons suggests that they were more independent than the Balrogs with regards to their choices. Now, if the Balrog is completely under the sway of Morgoth or Sauron, can it be considered liable for its actions? I would say no, the Balrog has no choice but to act according to Morgoth/Sauron's will.

Dragons though, being more independent, seem to have greater responsibility. They seem to choose to be evil in a far more obvious way than Balrogs do.

Now, this can be concluded in two contrary ways, depending on your definition of evil. Balrogs can be considered slaves to evil, and thus less evil than the Dragons who choose evil. But conversely, Dragons can be considered flawed (extremely flawed!) beings who retain the chance of doing good. Balrogs can never do this and thus are more evil.

Which one?