Fate of the two Blue Wizards?

[Son of Númenor]

I thought that 1 of them could be the Mouth of Sauron. Is there anything that could be used to try and prove this theory?

Unfortunately no, but there is enough available to disprove the theory.

The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge (The Return of the King, "The Black Gate Opens", 871).

Although one (or both) of the wizards may well have served Sauron in some regard after the disappearance of the Blue Wizards into the East, it is pretty obvious based on the passage above that neither was the Mouth of Sauron.

[Bombadil]

Now, Tolkien was very religious so this most likely is not true, but I was thinking that perhaps these cults that were formed that outlasted Sauron could maybe be religions of our world today. The only reason I think that is the whole "outlasted the fall of Sauron" thing.

This also doesn't sound like Tolkien, in both his writing style and his personality, but perhaps he was insulting Eastern religion by having wizards go east and set up cults?

[Aiwendil]

Bombadil wrote:

This also doesn't sound like Tolkien, in both his writing style and his personality, but perhaps he was insulting Eastern religion by having wizards go east and set up cults?

So perhaps one was Confucius and the other Siddhartha? Now there's an interesting idea!

[Son of Númenor]

Most major eastern religions have traceable backgrounds that Tolkien, as a learned man, was probably aware of. Here are a few that I can think of:

-Buddhism: Started by Siddhartha Gautama, circa 600 B.C.E.
-Islam: Started by Mohammed, late sixth century C.E.
-Confucianism: Started, obviously, by Confucius, 500's B.C.E.
-Taoism: Credit for the start given to Lao-zhi, circa 580 B.C.E.
-Shinto: Exact origins unknown, but believed to have begun circa 500 B.C.E.
-Hinduism: Origins in the Aryan invasion of what is now India, circa 1500 B.C.E.

Since the Third and Fourth Ages, according to Tolkien, were far longer ago than the origins of any of these major eastern religions, and since there is no evidence anywhere to suggest that Tolkien would ever want to include fake origins of an entire real religion in his mythology, it can safely be assumed that your theory is groundless.

[Bombadil]

Since the Third and Fourth Ages, according to Tolkien, were far longer ago than the origins of any of these major eastern religions, and since there is no evidence anywhere to suggest that Tolkien would ever want to include fake origins of an entire real religion in his mythology, it can safely be assumed that your theory is groundless.

Exactly SOn of Numenor, I was just thinking of the idea of it perhaps symbolically representing those religions. (which as I mentioned earlier wasn't his writing style because such writing would be considered allegorical)

[drigel]

It seems to me that the "emissaries" idea is totally consistant with the Vala's strategy for dealing with Morgoth/Sauron problem. The sending forth of representatives out to meet and or deal with the various races, as opposed to greeting them en masse, and influencing them merely by the power of them as a host. The Istari had the twist of assuming coporal forms though, probably as a result decision not to directly intervene in ME affairs. Maybe this was concluded after the destruction of Beleriand\Numenor..?..?

But I always felt the "cult" theory was mabye his way of setting up the scene for his "New Shadow" project - where the cult angle gets played out..?..?

Im not sure this makes sense sorry!

[Gurthang]

I'm not sure that the 'cult' theory is very credible. Throughout his work, Tolkien never directly talks about religions other than pro- or anti-Valar. The Numenoreans, for example, are not discussed other than they set themselves up higher than the Valar.

The idea that the Istari started cults doesn't go with his writing style.

[Noxomanus]

Can we consider the original version or the one with the Ithryn Luin being called Morinehtar and Romestamo the definitive one?