high, purged of the gross: the movies - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mark12_30 · 06-19-2004, 03:35 PM

Eomer, there's one I had not thought of. Interesting. I'll be on the lookout for that next time I read through! Certainly Sam had it out for Smeagol, but did he ever indulge it-- *against his master's wishes*? What would Tolkien have thought of the movie version of Sam and Smeagol...?

Very interesting food for thought.

In terms of "Let's" versus "Let us", I don't think Tolkien would have lost a lot of sleep over that one, and we can move on.

I think there are other items Tolkien would have lost a *lot* more sleep over; epic-level things; mythic-level things. Things involving honor and purity and nobility... Character traits. What think you?

Eomer's point-- Sam and Smeagol-- involves character, and I do think it's key. Let's go back to his description of his heroic, epic mythology:

connected legend
large and cosmogonic
romantic fairy-story
splendour
vast
cool and clear
fair elusive beauty
'high', purged of the gross
steeped in poetry
great tales in fullness
majestic whole

Did Tolkien get there?
And did PJ follow him there?

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 06-20-2004, 11:06 AM

Well, for the record I will say that Tolkien did get there. (I think it would be kind of pointless in discussing this topic if we doubt that Tolkien got there at all.)

And I think that, by and large, Jackson 'got' there too, or thereabouts at least. Certainly in comparison with basically every other big Hollywood-style film Jackson's characters were noble and admirable (excepting Denethor). Its just that we constantly compare Jackson with Tolkien on this forum (and not other film directors) and that is why he gets so much criticism.

Lush · 06-20-2004, 02:39 PM

The movies took themselves less seriously and I liked that. Though in that sense, I thought that the Lothlorien chapters were not given their due. But that's, like, just my opinion, man.

Lalaith · 06-20-2004, 03:53 PM

I know I've said this before, but I felt that Rohan and specifically Theoden were shortchanged by PJ. Once he had been healed by Gandalf, Tolkien's Theoden was noble and vigorous. Bernard Hill stayed sullen, quoting many of the lines that Tolkien's Theoden came out with *before* the healing.
The relationship between Rohan and Gondor in the book was I felt very noble, and I didn't like the way it was drawn into question in the movie.

Having said all that, the arrival of Rohan at the battle of the Pelennor Fields was still the best example in the entire movie trilogy of the "high" I think Mark 12_30 is talking about.

Saraphim · 06-20-2004, 04:00 PM

The heroic Legolas scenes, more than anything, got under my skin. But that is only a small bit, and easy to ignore when looking at the big picture.

What I loved very much was the time put into every detail of the societies. From Hobbiton to Lothlorien to Mordor, and everything in between, the setting was magnificent and the costumes were lovely.

Also, I don't think anyone was miscast in any way. All the actors played thier parts to the best of thier abilities. None were fake, or strained in thier lines. So despite the fact that some of the characters were different, they were all played well.

I also must mention the music. The music was always perfect, matching to the feeling of the scene.

~and thus my thoughts cease~

(For now at least

)

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 06-21-2004, 08:04 AM

Yes Saraphim, I too think that the music was very 'high' and it would have been truly gruesome had they tried to incorporate pop music into them.

Orominuialwen · 06-24-2004, 10:57 AM

I also think the music was very "high." At some points it becomes so beautiful and emotional that it makes me cry, or feel like I could burst (in a good way

) It was absolutely perfect.

Mad Baggins · 06-24-2004, 01:50 PM

I think that in terms of settings, costumes, and scores, PJ did an excellent job. The only thing that bothered me was how Caras Galadhon was not golden; it was more of a bluish-silver colour. But I'm not going to get started on that.

The one thing that bothered me was some of the characters. Yes, the "Let's hunt some orc" line didn't really float my oyster, but let's leave sleeping dogs lie. The one character I think PJ really buggered up was Arwen. In the book, the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen was beautifully simple, only explaining it more thoroughly in the Appendices. In the movies, PJ decided to stick Arwen in every scene he could. Let's not mention the infamous Helm's Deep fiasco. The constant appearance of Arwen in the movies made the relationship cheap and annoying.

The 'high' that mark12_30 was talking about did (I think) appear in some moments of the movies. The arrival of the Rohirrim was a good example, like Lalaith said. I think that the line of Gondorian soldiers galloping towards Osgiliath is another good scene that portrays the 'high'.

06-19-2004, 03:35 PM	#1
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Eomer, there's one I had not thought of. Interesting. I'll be on the lookout for that next time I read through! Certainly Sam had it out for Smeagol, but did he ever indulge it-- against his master's wishes? What would Tolkien have thought of the movie version of Sam and Smeagol...? Very interesting food for thought. In terms of "Let's" versus "Let us", I don't think Tolkien would have lost a lot of sleep over that one, and we can move on. I think there are other items Tolkien would have lost a lot more sleep over; epic-level things; mythic-level things. Things involving honor and purity and nobility... Character traits. What think you? Eomer's point-- Sam and Smeagol-- involves character, and I do think it's key. Let's go back to his description of his heroic, epic mythology: connected legend large and cosmogonic romantic fairy-story splendour vast cool and clear fair elusive beauty 'high', purged of the gross steeped in poetry great tales in fullness majestic whole Did Tolkien get there? And did PJ follow him there? __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 06-19-2004 at 03:41 PM.

06-20-2004, 11:06 AM	#2
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Well, for the record I will say that Tolkien did get there. (I think it would be kind of pointless in discussing this topic if we doubt that Tolkien got there at all.) And I think that, by and large, Jackson 'got' there too, or thereabouts at least. Certainly in comparison with basically every other big Hollywood-style film Jackson's characters were noble and admirable (excepting Denethor). Its just that we constantly compare Jackson with Tolkien on this forum (and not other film directors) and that is why he gets so much criticism. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

06-20-2004, 02:39 PM	#3
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	The movies took themselves less seriously and I liked that. Though in that sense, I thought that the Lothlorien chapters were not given their due. But that's, like, just my opinion, man. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

06-20-2004, 04:00 PM	#5
Saraphim Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The other side of freezing. Posts: 404	The heroic Legolas scenes, more than anything, got under my skin. But that is only a small bit, and easy to ignore when looking at the big picture. What I loved very much was the time put into every detail of the societies. From Hobbiton to Lothlorien to Mordor, and everything in between, the setting was magnificent and the costumes were lovely. Also, I don't think anyone was miscast in any way. All the actors played thier parts to the best of thier abilities. None were fake, or strained in thier lines. So despite the fact that some of the characters were different, they were all played well. I also must mention the music. The music was always perfect, matching to the feeling of the scene. ~and thus my thoughts cease~ (For now at least ) __________________ I drink Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters! ~ Always remember: pillage BEFORE you burn.

06-21-2004, 08:04 AM	#6
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Music Yes Saraphim, I too think that the music was very 'high' and it would have been truly gruesome had they tried to incorporate pop music into them. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

06-20-2004, 03:53 PM	#4
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	I know I've said this before, but I felt that Rohan and specifically Theoden were shortchanged by PJ. Once he had been healed by Gandalf, Tolkien's Theoden was noble and vigorous. Bernard Hill stayed sullen, quoting many of the lines that Tolkien's Theoden came out with before the healing. The relationship between Rohan and Gondor in the book was I felt very noble, and I didn't like the way it was drawn into question in the movie. Having said all that, the arrival of Rohan at the battle of the Pelennor Fields was still the best example in the entire movie trilogy of the "high" I think Mark 12_30 is talking about.

06-24-2004, 10:57 AM	#7
Orominuialwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2003 Location: Umbar, but before the corsairs took over. (Ave Maria University, FL, USA) Posts: 632	Music I also think the music was very "high." At some points it becomes so beautiful and emotional that it makes me cry, or feel like I could burst (in a good way ) It was absolutely perfect. __________________ Gone for lentSeeyou at Easter! (And on Sundays too, maybe.)

06-24-2004, 01:50 PM	#8
Mad Baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: A place where after thunder golden showers come falling like a rain of flowers. Posts: 371	I think that in terms of settings, costumes, and scores, PJ did an excellent job. The only thing that bothered me was how Caras Galadhon was not golden; it was more of a bluish-silver colour. But I'm not going to get started on that. The one thing that bothered me was some of the characters. Yes, the "Let's hunt some orc" line didn't really float my oyster, but let's leave sleeping dogs lie. The one character I think PJ really buggered up was Arwen. In the book, the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen was beautifully simple, only explaining it more thoroughly in the Appendices. In the movies, PJ decided to stick Arwen in every scene he could. Let's not mention the infamous Helm's Deep fiasco. The constant appearance of Arwen in the movies made the relationship cheap and annoying. The 'high' that mark12_30 was talking about did (I think) appear in some moments of the movies. The arrival of the Rohirrim was a good example, like Lalaith said. I think that the line of Gondorian soldiers galloping towards Osgiliath is another good scene that portrays the 'high'. __________________ I like buying snacks from a vending machine because food is better when it falls. Sometimes at the grocery, I'll drop a candy bar so that it will achieve its maximum flavor potential.

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