The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books > Chapter-by-Chapter
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-22-2004, 08:28 PM   #1
Nurumaiel
Vice of Twilight
 
Nurumaiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: on a mountain
Posts: 1,121
Nurumaiel has just left Hobbiton.
Child, and if you're what the cat dragged in, what am I?

"When Mr. Bilbo Baggins of Bag End..." Those are the first words I heard of the book when my father began reading it aloud to me when I was just barely seven years old. My brothers and I had already become faintly acquainted with this Mr. Bilbo of Bag End as well as his younger cousin Frodo Baggins through bits and pieces about them told by my father, and we were naturally interested to hear the whole tale. We had not yet heard The Hobbit nor read it ourselves, and so we were ignorant of Bilbo's history and exactly how he acquired this Ring; but goodness did we know what the Ring was! The Ring, Bilbo, and Frodo made many interesting games during the rainy days. I shan't even begin to say what stories we made up with those characters. All the worst of the worst fanfictions put together could not equal the horrors that our cheerful, childish minds came up with!

I was a little mite of seven, enjoying my new home in the woods immensely was we had just moved from living in a town, and I along with my brothers had been excited at the prospect of our father reading aloud to us every evening. That evening a fire had been built in the stone fireplace and four wide-eyed little children gathered at their father's feet. No electric lights were turned on, but he ride by the firelight alone. Not too far away the fifth child who was too young to really pay attention was contenting himself with playing toys. And my father began by reading... "Chapter One... A Long-expected Party." He started at the beginning of chapter one that evening and was not allowed to put the book down for the night until he firmly insisted about three-fourths through the second chapter. We were already eager to hear more about Frodo and Bilbo and the Ring, and hearing the words made us firm and life-long friends of the characters. I can recall how I wept at not being allowed to listen to the final chapter of the Fellowship because of my own stubborness and unoblinginess.

Oh dear, those were the good old days.

"...and as Mr. Baggins was generous with his money..." This was one of the first things that struck me while reading the book again many years later. This, I think, was why I had always loved Bilbo, even as a small child. As a small child I pretended he was real, as children are wont to do, and I always looked on this 'imaginary Bilbo friend' as a very kind old uncle. This sentence sizes up the way I thought him when I was young, and the way I still think of him... a charitable, kind, obliging person. One who wouldn't be caught being stingy with their butter for the bread! "'A very nice well-spoken gentlehobbit is Mr.Bilbo, as I've always said.'" So have I! I believed most fervently that what the Gaffer said about Mr. Bilbo was exactly true, and I haven't changed my mind since.

Tweens... "...the irresponsible twenties between childhood and coming of age at thirty-three." When I was a child it seemed fairly obvious that one was out of their tweens when they turned thirty-three, but I wondered when one first went into their twins. When, by Hobbit standard, was one no longer in their childhood? I had desperately wanted to celebrate the day I entered my tweens, but I never had the faintest idea when that day would be.

"'...they live on the wrong side of the Brandywine River.'" This I consider curious. In the discussion of the Prologue it was mentioned that perhaps the Shire Hobbits and Bree Hobbits had a rivalry. This might also be true with the Shire Hobbits and the Buckland Hobbits, if most other Shirefolk feel as Daddy Twofoot does. Undoubtedly by Hobbits of the Shire the Bucklanders were considered 'queer;' the Gaffer says as much. But Daddy Twofoot's statement also implies there might be a rivalry between them.

"'He's in and out of Bag End. Crazy about stories of the old days he is, and he listens to all Mr. Bilbo's tales.'" Sam has to be liked from the first, or at least he was so by me. I formed the mental image in my head of young Sam, creeping away from his duties in the garden every so often to sit at Bilbo's feet and gaze up in awe as he hears of those 'Elves and Dragons.'

My current impressions thus far, along with previous impressions as a child. I would continue, I suppose, as well as reply to observations of others, but like Sam I must be drawn away from the Elves and Dragons to go to the cabbages and potatoes... that is, the work that needs to be done after dinner!
__________________
In the fury of the moment I can see the Master's hand
in every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand.
Nurumaiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2004, 12:20 AM   #2
Arkenstone
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
White Tree

Saraphim & Fingolfin II - Do you think it is possible that Tolkien was trying to show how normal the Hobbits were and how they could very well be us ? Except for the hairy feet and short stature. I think it is the overall normalness of this chapter that at once draws folks into the book. From any country in the world people can associate with a good gossip over a pint at their local, the family squabbles etc., There is that automatic sympathy that one gives to Frodo because he has been orphaned and an immediate recognition in Sam as a Hobbit of principle and integrity.
Another point that sticks out like a sore thumb is the lack of machinery in the Shire. It is, aside from the Mill, a place where people work with nature to produce their pleasures....be they food or pipeweed. We know that Tolkien aborred the march away from the natural to the mechanised world.
There is also the possibility, from his own experience with war, that he is showing us that it is the normal everyday person, the little person, who goes on these quests (wars). They are the ones who do the dirty work, put their lives at risk and endure things that no human/hobbit should have to endure in their lifetime.

davem
Quote:
This has always struck me - the 'Englishness' of the world of the Shire - to the extent that I was deeply surprised that readers from other countries could relate to the story at all. I can't help asking the (probably unanswerable)question, whether English readers understand/experience the Shire & its inhabitants differently from readers in other countries (as, I'd assume, a Russian would understand/experience, say, War & Peace differently to a non Russian). Or, if you're not English, are there parts of your country that feel like the Shire
I was born in England and came to Australia when I was 15, that was 32 years ago, which makes me 21, that'll save you overworking your calculator. I can relate very much to the English countryside that Tolkien plans his Shire in, but there are also places where I live that could be a good backdrop for the Shire as well. Had I first read LotR in Australia I think that I could have still related a place in OZ to the Shire.......

Estelyn Telcontar Thankyou for the link, I will go and read the thread. I read an interesting article called 'Tolkien's Mother-less Heroes' it also brought in the Fatherless ones, but it was interesting to note that the majority of those who are major players in the Fellowship have lost either one or both of their parents. Gandalf excluded of course.

Just an out of place thing here. I find it more than amusing that for such a long time in Tolkien's story Frodo was called Bingo LOL I'm really glad he changed it
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2004, 12:41 AM   #3
Gorwingel
Beholder of the Mists
 
Gorwingel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now
Posts: 1,419
Gorwingel has just left Hobbiton.
As others have said, this chapter is very much about hobbits, and one of the things that really struck me while reading this last night was how Tolkien really defines Frodo as being different than the other hobbits. I know that this has probably been talked about other places but... I was just wondering, why do many of you think that Tolkien emphasizes Frodo being "his first and second cousin, once removed either way, as the saying is, if you follow me"?

This just struck me because this, and the entire history of Frodo could have been something that could have been skipped over, but instead it is brought up. I know that this is here just to tell about how Frodo is an orphan, and to give us history about why the Sackville-Bagginses are so intent on getting Bag End. But, I don't know, I think that is something that would be considered slightly weird in our society, so I find it interesting that he brings it up.

Now I consider this a slightly light-spirited chapter. Because it does have many very light moments, but then also the dark parts that become very important later in the story. We of course have the very interesting Bilbo and the parting of the ring section. Which is very important because if you read the Hobbit, you finally find out that the Ring is no mere trinket, which just makes people disappear. You find out that it is something quite dangerous, something that turns quite friendly characters like Bilbo into something they are not (which also on the subject of foreshadowing, is another foreshadowing of the effect the ring will eventually have on Frodo).

This chapter though has many memorable things. Like I have always remembered the Party Tree (maybe just because I have always wanted to have one myself). Even when I attempted a read of the trilogy (where I failed) years ago, I have always remembered the Party Tree and the Fireworks. This party though just reminds me of one very huge wedding (not a birthday, because with the giving of gifts to the guests, it very much reminds me of a wedding with the tradition of favor giving, and also for many you don't get all the relatives together for a birthday, but just for a wedding, or funeral) with a ton of relatives who don't quite get along.
__________________
Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance
Gorwingel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2004, 01:44 AM   #4
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,244
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
to post #26

Squatter, great posts up there, both of them!
I'd like especially to turn back to Bilbo's road-song and explore it a bit (even if I reach out of the chapter by chapter format):

As far as I am any judge, the song in question is the first instance of what poetry of LoTR is going to become throughout the narration to follow. For one thing, not one verse is out of place, and, on the surface of it, they always correspond to the current situation on hand. Bilbo is going away, so he [naturally(?)] sings a road-song. But, you are verily on the spot noting that it may be looked at like something over and beyond the mere ‘road-songishness’. If one surpasses our pace a bit, and compares all the instances of 'road-songs' to be recurred in the text, interesting conclusions may be drawn:

So, Instance 1 (Bilbo in “Long Expected Party”)

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.


It is notable how Bilbo’s ‘feet’ are ‘eager’ at the moment. He is going to have fun, after all, he’s journey is no more a burden, for he has given up the Ring, and is going to have a holiday

Instance 2 (Frodo in “Three is Company”)
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with weary feet,
Until it joins some larger way,
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.


It is hard to notice, and, for the first reading, both songs seem one and the same. But there it is, the major difference – Frodo is going on with ‘weary feet’, journey of his is not to be ‘adventures in May’ as Bilbo’s were in the Hobbit, he, unlike Bilbo, just assumed a burden, which, in the end, will claim his life (i.e. the Road) altogether. And it is expression of Tolkien’s great skill, as I’ve mentioned, that in both cases the verses are very much applicable to the current situation, but one can not help always sensing something more to them than mere expression of the situation on hand. But there is more to follow, still:

Instance 3 (Bilbo in “Many Partings”)

The Road goes ever on and on
Out from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
Let others follow it who can!
Let them a journey new begin,
But I at last with weary feet
Will turn towards the lighted inn,
My evening-rest and sleep to meet.’


Now again, this is very true on both levels – Bilbo is old, Ring is destroyed, so he does not have anything to support his unusual longevity already mentioned in posts up there, and is not going to have journeys any more (save one, that is, last journey to the Havens). But again, there is more to it than meets an eye. If road is again life, than Bilbo is stating his approaching death by it. And here is one of the much discussed and not easily spotted Christianity of the LoTR glimpsing through. What is ‘lighted inn’ and ‘evening-rest’, if ‘road’ be life and ‘sleep to meet’ be death? May it be it is slim hope of salvation, perchance?

Such a duality, I should say, is a characteristic of all Shire poetry, but not to outrun the format of chapter by chapter discussion, let us deal with verses to come as they turn up
Cheers
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2004, 04:57 AM   #5
Hilde Bracegirdle
Relic of Wandering Days
 
Hilde Bracegirdle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,480
Hilde Bracegirdle has just left Hobbiton.
One thing that hits me, well like a train, is Tolkien’s choosing to mention express trains, clocks and carriages. He seems to gently ease us into that older world by degrees, first taking us to the Shire, and sprinkling his story with a few ‘more modern’ items before hinting at that there is more to this existence than we or the hobbits are fully aware of.

I agree that we, in a way, are like the hobbits. We are caught up in our own concerns; feeling like this is what life is all about, unaware or disinterested in the things not considered useful or pertinent to our mundane life. But we find there are things that influence life, and a history that we are blissfully unaware of. We along with and through Frodo begin to discover that something else, a difference life, lies beyond the realm of our experience.

As for hairy feet and short statue, perhaps hobbits are really men sprouting roots and growing ‘treeish’, their height merely an outward expression of a lack of desire to reach for those higher things, or to see beyond their own patch of land.

Last edited by Hilde Bracegirdle; 06-23-2004 at 05:53 AM.
Hilde Bracegirdle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2004, 06:48 AM   #6
Guinevere
Banshee of Camelot
 
Guinevere's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
Guinevere is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
I’m trying to catch up ..... well, what can I say after all these great posts ?
Quote:
This has always struck me - the 'Englishness' of the world of the Shire - to the extent that I was deeply surprised that readers from other countries could relate to the story at all
For me (although English isn't even my mothertongue) this Englishness of the Shire and its inhabitants is an essential part of the charm of this chapter and I enjoyed very much reading the Squatters excellent posts. Kudos !
Quote:
This chapter is, of course, accompanied by a map depicting a part of the Shire, and I would like to point out how Tolkien's knowledge of English onomastics plays a part here. All of the names you will see on that map either are or could be real English place names.
That's what makes the Shire so real, the names don't sound "made up" at all !
One of the reasons why I find the German translation so disappointing is that all the English names (of places and persons) which have a meaning, have been translated. That does not only take the "Englishness" away but never sounds so convincing and real, since no translator can have Tolkien's abilities. In addition, the various styles of speech of the characters which makes them so "alive" got also lost in the translation.
As Tolkien himself wrote in letter 190
Quote:
"The Shire" is based on rural England and not on any other country in the world. (....) The toponymy of The Shire is a "parody" of that rural England, in much the same sense as are its inhabitans: they go together and are meant to. After all the book is English, and by an Englishman, and presumably even those who wish its narrative and dialogue turned into an idiom that they understand, will not ask of a translator that he should deliberately attempt to destroy the local colour.
The things that Hilde Bracegirdle mentioned (umbrellas, clocks on the mantelpiece etc) also caught my attention.
I agree with Heren Istarion in his last post on the Prologue-thread that the hobbits and their way of living and thinking are really an anachronism in the ancient and heroic world of Middle-earth. And I think too that this is so that the reader can identify with them. After "The Hobbit" was such a success, I guess Tolkien saw that the readers needed such a "bridge" .
And also :
Quote:
A moral of the whole (….) is the obvious one, that without the high and noble, the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple und ordinary, the noble and heroic is meaningless.
( from letter 131)
__________________
Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat
our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat!
Guinevere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2004, 07:59 AM   #7
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,521
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420!

Hilde Bracegirdle
You bought up a nice point about how the hobbits are small in stature and it might just symbolize how maybe they don't look beyond their own lands. They only are concerned with themselves. This would make sense because very few hobbits ever left the shire (Bilbo, Frodo, Sam...etc) and the ones that did were thought upon as "strange." Very few hobbits ever did anything of real importance (Bilbo, possibly the archers sent to aid Gondor, Frodo..etc), and again the ones who did were "outsiders" or "strange." The reason the small stature comes into play, is because of Merry and Pippin. These are 2 hobbits that both did extraordinary things, and of course they became the tallest hobbits ever because of drinking the ent draught. This symbolizes Merry and Pippin's "growth" not just physically but mentally and became more mature. Merry and Pippin went beyond their "lands," or "borders," and ended up becoming the tallest hobbits (i believe over 4 feet tall). So this growth could very well symbolize how both hobbits went beyond what other hobbits referred to as "regularity" and "reached" for higher things, unlike most hobbits who were "smaller" in stature.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2004, 09:42 AM   #8
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Boots A jumble of points

Guinevre, thank you for some interesting quotations from the Letters. I was very drawn to Tolkien's use of the word 'parody', within quotation marks, to describe both the typography and the inhabitants. What I would give for a fuller explanation of his understanding of parody!

I went back to read all of Letter #190; it is one of Tolkien's angriest I think, because the translators have not just translated the names into a cultural milieu which makes little sense of the original, but has also done so so badly, with little knowledge of and sensitivity to Dutch linquistic heritage. I think two other parts of that letter deserve to be quoted here.

Quote:
The Translator has (on internal evidence) glanced at but not used the Appendices. He seems incidentally quite unaware of difficulties he is creating for himself later. The 'Anglo Saxon' of the Rohirrim is not much like Dutch. In fact, heis pulling to bits with very clumsy fingers a web that he had made only a slight attempt to understand ....
...
Anyway I'm not going to be treated ŕ la Mrs Tiggywinkle = Poupette ŕ l'épingle. Not that B[eatrix] P[otter] did not give translators hell. Though possibly from securer grounds than I have. I am no linguist, but I do know something about nomenclature, and have specially studied it, and I am actually very angry indeed.
Hilde Bracegirdle and others, too , thanks for pointing out the anachronistic mentions of umbrellas and clocks and carriages. I wonder perhaps if we could at least say that such references point to a particular kind of mechanical contrivance, those of earlier developments rather than the totalising factories of the Industrial Revolution.

Squatter, Child and I were discussing in PM the very point you make about Pip and Merry, Frodo and Sam, and Bilbo, that they shared traits not well accepted in The Shire. Good call, too, I think, to suggest that Tolkien himself shared this elven wander lust in his desire to seek greater knowledge of languages and cultures. How very interesting a difference there is between him and his brother Hillary!

Child,

Quote:
Tolkien was very much a family man. My guess is that the goodness that shines through the Shire actually reflects two things. On the one hand, there were his memories of his boyhood, including the physical environment of the Midlands, something that's already been discussed on this thread. But there's something else as well. Tolkien was a husband and father. Shire life is essentially family life and I think he must have looked to the model of his own household for some of that. There would have been no Hobbits and, by implication, no Lord of the Rings unless Tolkien the father sat and told stories to his children. The "small" life that Tolkien describes, with both its good points and its shortcomings, was something that he found deep within his own heart. And, because it has a basis in personal reality, it is very compelling to many of us, even those who in our own time preferred to go chasing after Elves!
Ah, yes, like you I went chasing after elves, and have returned to a more domestic community, but one that is, I think, a little removed from that which, as Tolkien says in the letter Guinevre quoted, is a 'parody.' I think you are very right to point out Tolkien's strong sense of family. However, I am not so sure I would see his own personal adult life reflected in The Shire's web of social connections. I think back more to his childhood and recall his own loss of his father at--what, the age of four?--and then of his mother at the age of twelve and the upheavals of guardianship and many different domestic arrangements which followed the joyful days at Sarehole. Imagine his aunt burning his mother's letters, having no sense of how precious they might be to him and Hilary! To me, the haunting sense of nostalgia for this community might derive in some sense from the fact that Tolkien himself never experienced a 'regular' family and social situation in his childhood.

This is, however, just a suggestion, as I recall Tolkien's own point in the Foreword that the relation between life and art is very complex and far less direct than many critics would be able to unravel. Sometimes, I think, it is very easy to be so influenced by the charm and eloquence of the art that we think the very stuff and strength of the writing must derive from real life and not from the imagination or creation.

In defense of this, I would make a personal observation of something I have experienced. I have myself complimented someone on how his writing made me feel very strongly the emotion contained in the writing, with my sense that here must be personal experience out of which he was writing or referring to. And I was wrong, as I came know, for the personal experience does not exist, quite as directly as I had thought. I had responded to this writer's eloquence and art and his ability to recreate in a very different context, something which perhaps had a germ growing in real life. It was a most amazing experience for me, for here I had fallen into the very spell of words and art which normally I strive very hard to respect, that this must be real and not artistic illusion. And the writer in question? Oh, he was tickled pink. It was the greatest compliment I could have given him.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

Last edited by Bęthberry; 06-23-2004 at 09:56 AM.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:16 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.