Have ye then no hope? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Evisse the Blue · 07-02-2004, 10:29 AM

Hang on, I may have started from a wrong supposition here - so help me correct it. The meaning of Estel implies hope for the fate of the world as a whole (as in the ultimate fate of Arda, or of Elves), not the fate of individual Elves, Men, etc? Because that's what I meant when I asked 'Can Estel ever be proven wrong?' I meant can anybody have the faith, the unfounded hope that things would work out well for them, and have their hope crushed? (Take Mark12_30's example of Arwen's hope for Aragorn surviving and being made king. What if Aragorn were to die in battle and Arwen's banner be left to remain as a testimony of her foolish hope?) The fact that Eru would prevail in the end is a bitter comfort for generations of defeated individuals. It makes sense then that Elves, who are very spiritual creatures feel Estel, while hobbits, and even men, settle for a more grounded sort of optimism.

Mad Baggins · 07-04-2004, 09:05 PM

I believe anyone can have the faith that things will prevail for them. Take the example of Eowyn on the battlefield beside her dying uncle. She was hoping with all her might that he would pull through, even though a wee voice in her heart was saying that he wouldn't. Her hope was crushed when Theoden died in her arms. If I may, Eowyn was experiencing 'Estel' on the battlefield while Theoden was wounded, but it was ultimately ended when the last of his life ebbed away. In my theory Estel can, if rarely, be proven wrong.

07-02-2004, 10:29 AM	#1
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	Hang on, I may have started from a wrong supposition here - so help me correct it. The meaning of Estel implies hope for the fate of the world as a whole (as in the ultimate fate of Arda, or of Elves), not the fate of individual Elves, Men, etc? Because that's what I meant when I asked 'Can Estel ever be proven wrong?' I meant can anybody have the faith, the unfounded hope that things would work out well for them, and have their hope crushed? (Take Mark12_30's example of Arwen's hope for Aragorn surviving and being made king. What if Aragorn were to die in battle and Arwen's banner be left to remain as a testimony of her foolish hope?) The fact that Eru would prevail in the end is a bitter comfort for generations of defeated individuals. It makes sense then that Elves, who are very spiritual creatures feel Estel, while hobbits, and even men, settle for a more grounded sort of optimism. __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

07-04-2004, 09:05 PM	#2
Mad Baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: A place where after thunder golden showers come falling like a rain of flowers. Posts: 371	I believe anyone can have the faith that things will prevail for them. Take the example of Eowyn on the battlefield beside her dying uncle. She was hoping with all her might that he would pull through, even though a wee voice in her heart was saying that he wouldn't. Her hope was crushed when Theoden died in her arms. If I may, Eowyn was experiencing 'Estel' on the battlefield while Theoden was wounded, but it was ultimately ended when the last of his life ebbed away. In my theory Estel can, if rarely, be proven wrong. __________________ I like buying snacks from a vending machine because food is better when it falls. Sometimes at the grocery, I'll drop a candy bar so that it will achieve its maximum flavor potential.

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