Numenor and America

[Saraphim]

I do see similarities between America and Numenor. And, I do forsee America (proverbally or literally) sinking into the sea because of the blind stupidity of its leaders.

But to continue, I find that what has been said before on this thread to hold true. That Tolkien detested allegory and would have never conciously compared the U.S. with Numenor. But, however, we have to look at unconcious allegory. If Tolkien was writing the Akallabeth during the 1960's, there is the Vietnam War to be looking at in comparison of Ar-Pharazon's invasion on Valinor.

I only guess, please refrain from flaming me with combusted trout.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The Akallabêth existed long before the 1960s, I'm afraid. Tolkien was working on it before he started to write The Lord of the Rings.

As has already been mentioned on this thread, the new lands to the West (the Americas - in his fiction literally the New World) came into existence when Númenor was destroyed and the Undying Lands were separated from the rest of the world. Tolkien made explicit comparisons with the ancient Egyptians and with Atlantis, but nowhere in his writings is there any hint that he intended to refer to America. To be quite honest, I doubt that America mattered enough to Tolkien for it to feature largely in his thinking.

However, Tolkien's story of Númenor is certainly applicable to most advanced cultures. It applies to the Egyptian Old Kingdom, to ancient Greece, to Rome, to the British empire and to modern America: people do have a tendency to abandon their spiritual principles, to seek to dominate other people, to become obsessed with longevity, luxury and the accumulation of wealth. Tolkien demonstrates with his Atlantis legend that even the best of Men are still vulnerable to failure and the fall into evil, and that those who are given the greatest gifts are often those who fall the furthest. To apply this to any one society is to deny its universal significance and to reduce its power. It is also, in my opinion, to misinterpret both the author's intentions and his mode of thinking to a quite astounding degree.

[Bombadil]

Good points Squatter, but I'm not trying to say he directly symbolized America:

But rather I'd say he wrote a story possibly inspired by the tale of Atlantis that, which does go hand in hand with his style of writing, could be applied to American culture.

I'm just having some fun applying this story to my culture, for it is the culture (or non-culture) I know best.

[symestreem]

I think the similarities come from the fact that Tolkien was writing about history and life, and in history you can see certain trends. If a fictional history has any resemblance to real life, it will reflect some of these trends.
A well-known cycle of a nation's development lists eleven stages:
1. Bondage
2. Spiritual faith
3. Great courage
4. Liberty
5. Abundance
6. Selfishness
7. Complacency
8. Apathy
9. Moral decay
10. Dependence
11. Bondage

While not all these can be applied specifically to the Numenoreans, the point is that if a country or empire is not conquered from the outside, it will fall from the inside. Neither the Numenoreans were, nor has America been, conquered from the outside. Therefore, they both fell/are falling from the inside. It's part of history.

[lindil]

While by and large I agree both with Squatter and Symestreem, I think there is a special applicability to the Atlantis stories that circulate in Gurdjieff's and other esoteric circles. Eseentially it is that Atlantis was destroyed by playing with powerful technology they had no moral maturity to use. JRRT does not really go there with his Akallabeth, focusing instead on a loss of faith in Eru and his agents, and in a growing arrogance amongst the leaders and apathy amongst the masses. Indeed that might be the aspect of the Akallabeth most applicable to America. The whole country [or selected buildings] will sooner or later reap what the leaders sow. Democracies that become full of sheep will sooner or later be led to the slaughter.

[Selmo]

America as Numenor..........

Does that mean we can look forward to America disapearing beneath the waves?

[The Barrow-Wight]

Does that mean the survivors will wash up on British/European shores and take over?

Let's not get too hopeful that America founders. Afteall, the Downs is located there. Keep your 'anti' thoughts outta my American barrow.