Good guys of LOTR clueless?

[Kuruharan]

In the last meeting of the White Council, Gandalf had the knowledge that Bilbo's ring description was similar that of Sauron. Gandalf had all of the information that he needed to find out if Bilbo's was that of Sauron just 11 years after Bilbo returned to the Shire.

Incorrect. “Similar” is not “same.” Note the quote comparing it to the appearance of “lesser rings.” (As a side note, there had to be other lesser rings besides the dwarf, elf, and human rings. Each of those was described as having a particular gemstone. The point of comparison was that the One Ring had no gem. If it was compared to other rings lacking gemstones, there must have been other lesser rings of the same make to compare it to.)

Anyway, Gandalf was uncertain how to determine if the Ring was The One rather than one of the lesser rings. That is why he was trying to find Gollum for all those years. He hoped to find a clue. He did not know that fire would bring out the letters that would reveal the Ring until he read that in Minas Tirith. (And I don’t want to hear anything about Gandalf tossing the Ring into a fire beforehand just to see what would happen. I’m sure your first step in determining the properties of a unique item is to try to destroy it.) Just because the idea of trying to find some writing of Isildur in Minas Tirith did not occur to Gandalf until the hunt for Gollum appeared certain to prove fruitless does not make him incompetent. Not even wizards can think of everything all the time.

If the wise could not mount an effective search for the most important artifact of the Age in more than 2000 years, they have to be incompetent.

This statement is presenting a false either/or situation (particularly since you did not bother to answer the gist of my suggestion). This is not so simple a matter as to be an either/or. If the Wise are to be judged by such a standard then the standard must be applied to their Enemy as well. The obvious correlation is since Sauron failed to conquer the world in several millennia of trying, he has to be incompetent. He is also incompetent because it took him so long to figure out what had happened to the Ring.

If everyone in the tale is incompetent then competence ceases to have any meaning because nobody possesses it. It tends to render this whole discussion rather pointless.

[Maédhros]

Incorrect. “Similar” is not “same.” Note the quote comparing it to the appearance of “lesser rings.” (As a side note, there had to be other lesser rings besides the dwarf, elf, and human rings. Each of those was described as having a particular gemstone. The point of comparison was that the One Ring had no gem. If it was compared to other rings lacking gemstones, there must have been other lesser rings of the same make to compare it to.)

Please provide evidence as to wether these supposed other lesser rings where. And while similar is not the same, it definitely warranted an investigation at that time.

Anyway, Gandalf was uncertain how to determine if the Ring was The One rather than one of the lesser rings. That is why he was trying to find Gollum for all those years. He hoped to find a clue. He did not know that fire would bring out the letters that would reveal the Ring until he read that in Minas Tirith. (And I don’t want to hear anything about Gandalf tossing the Ring into a fire beforehand just to see what would happen. I’m sure your first step in determining the properties of a unique item is to try to destroy it.) Just because the idea of trying to find some writing of Isildur in Minas Tirith did not occur to Gandalf until the hunt for Gollum appeared certain to prove fruitless does not make him incompetent. Not even wizards can think of everything all the time.

I cannot be clearer. In that particular instance he was incompetent. There is no way around it. At the time of the last White Council he must have done something about Bilbo's ring. He knew that Bibo's ring and Sauron's ring had similar looks, and he had a bad feeling about it. The logical and competent thing is to do something about it, not let the nagging feeling haunt you for years and years. I asked you, would it have killed Gandalf to take a month out of those 69 years to find out more about it?
No. There is an interest statement by Gandalf in which he says that he was deceived by the words of Saruman. I don't think that he was lulled but rather he wanted to convince himself that Bilbo's ring could not in any way be that of Sauron, even though he had a bad feeling about it and they had similar descriptions. IMO Gandalf deceived himself by saying, well if Saruman who studied the lore of the Rings think that it is lost then it must be so.
A note about fires, you don't mean the same fire in Bilbo's fireplace that could not even melt gold?

This statement is presenting a false either/or situation (particularly since you did not bother to answer the gist of my suggestion). This is not so simple a matter as to be an either/or. If the Wise are to be judged by such a standard then the standard must be applied to their Enemy as well. The obvious correlation is since Sauron failed to conquer the world in several millennia of trying, he has to be incompetent. He is also incompetent because it took him so long to figure out what had happened to the Ring.

Not true at all. The good guys only won by sheer luck. The destruction of the ring was the only way in which they could win.
If they could have destroyed the Ring much sooner than when it actually happened, a great deal of wars and battles and suffering could have been avoided. The destruction of Sauron in the year 2 of the TA would have been a greater victory for ME than his actual defeat 3000 plus years later. This is what people fail to see.

[NightKnight]

He knew that Bibo's ring and Sauron's ring had similar looks,

And he probably also knew that many other rings in the world were plain, golden rings. Why should it be just the One Ring, that had been missing for so long and was thought to be flushed out into the Sea?

[Kuruharan]

Please provide evidence as to wether these supposed other lesser rings where.

What? Could you restate that in a less garbled fashion?

In that particular instance he was incompetent.

He was mistaken. It is not the same thing as incompetence. A mistake is simply an error. Incompetence categorizes the subject as being wholly unfitted for the required task. You have made a convincing argument that the Wise (and Gandalf in particular) made a mistake (a mistake he owned up to). You have yet to make anything approaching a convincing argument that Gandalf (or anybody else) making a mistake means that they are incompetent.

IMO Gandalf deceived himself by saying, well if Saruman who studied the lore of the Rings think that it is lost then it must be so.

Perhaps. However, defering to another’s judgement is not proof of incompetence. Nobody had reason to suspect that Saruman was a traitor at this point. Interestingly enough, at the time of the last meeting of the White Council (according to the Tale of Years) Saruman had not even then made his final descent into evil. There was no reason to suppose that Saruman was not telling the truth as far as he knew it.

A note about fires, you don't mean the same fire in Bilbo's fireplace that could not even melt gold?

You are being deliberately obtuse. Gandalf did not know that the letters (or whatever) would be there to be seen. He investigated that possibility as soon as he considered a means of doing so.

The good guys only won by sheer luck. The destruction of the ring was the only way in which they could win.

Yet again you have missed the point of what I was trying to say.

How does their victory by luck prove they were incompetent? I could name many instances where highly competent individuals succeeded by luck (or at least what is called luck). That is just a part of life.

If they could have destroyed the Ring much sooner than when it actually happened, a great deal of wars and battles and suffering could have been avoided. The destruction of Sauron in the year 2 of the TA would have been a greater victory for ME than his actual defeat 3000 plus years later.

While this may be true, this does not have much to do with what we are talking about. That should be discussed under a thread titled “Why didn’t the Elves Push Isildur into Mount Doom when they had the Chance?” While I personally think that they should have dumped Isildur into the volcano and been done with it; that they did not is not proof of incompetence. The usual defense is more of a moral argument.

[symestreem]

Well, I figured this theory would seem too anti-good guy to fly with most, but I'm surprised that there hasn't been anyone at all on the Downs that is willing to play along a bit and maybe has some thoughts or quotes that would go with it.

Quotes? OK.

"And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it. It is his great hope and our great fear."
"Why, why wasn't it destroyed?" cried Frodo. "And how did the Enemy ever come to lose it, if he was so strong, and it was so precious to him?".....
"It was taken from him", said Gandalf. "The strength of the elves to resist him was greater long ago; and not all men were estranged from them. The men of Westernesse came to their aid."

bold emphasis mine; italics Tolkien's

Then all listened while Elrond in his clear voice spoke of Sauron and the Rings of Power, and their forging in the Second Age of the world long ago. A part of his tale was known to some there, but the full tale to none, and many eyes were turned to Elrond in fear and wonder as he told of the Elven-smiths of Eregion and their friendship for knowledge, by which Sauron ensnared him.

At this the stranger, Boromir, broke in. "So that is what became of the Ring!" he cried. "If ever such a tale was told in the South, it has long been forgotten. I have heard of the Great Ring of him that we do not name; but we believed that it perished from the world in the ruin of his first realm."

I had a point to make with this, but unfortunately no time to make it. So, I'll be Bach.

[the phantom]

Incompetence categorizes the subject as being wholly unfitted for the required task

Well, Kuru, I hate to say it but I think that Gandalf was "unfitted for the required task" (that task being the defeat of Sauron).

I also believe that Gandalf was meant for the job.

Confusing? Well, let me use another example to explain.

Frodo was meant to be the Ring bearer, but he certainly wasn't fit for the job. When it came down to it he could not destroy the Ring. He failed though he was the perfect one for the task.

Gandalf as the leader of the resistance to Sauron also failed. Remember, Gandalf died when he fought the Balrog. At that point it was over for the good guys. Just imagine the rest of the book without the things that Gandalf did. But Eru sent him back (with extra power) and so ammended his failure.

Similarly, when Frodo failed Eru stepped in and made everything turn out okay.

The good guys only won by sheer luck. The destruction of the ring was the only way in which they could win.

And I would add that the destruction of the Ring was not possible, making the good guys losers no matter what.

Thank Eru for Eru.

[Earendilyon]

the phantom:

I think that Gandalf was "unfitted for the required task" (that task being the defeat of Sauron).

According to Letter #156, Tolkien didn't think Gandalf was't fir for the job, but that the task had become too grave for the Istari to cope with, within the rules set for them:

Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.
That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.'

And I would add that the destruction of the Ring was not possible, making the good guys losers no matter what.

I agree with you, that it was not in the power of the 'good guys' to destroy the Ring, but not that that fact makes them "losers", not in the sense which is mostly attached to that word. They would loose for all the knew, but were not losers.