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#1 |
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Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,480
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Skipping to the end of the chapter...
Every time I have read LoTR I have been struck by the frequency with which Frodo’s dreams are relayed early on, and how they taper off. If memory serves, the last being the dream in Tom Bombadil’s house. When pondering them I have the tendency to believe that these dreams have something to do with Gandalf (and not just the content of them). For though he is absent in person his mind is very much on Frodo, and having spent some time in Lorien, the istar might have gained a little knowledge from Irmo on dull afternoons. |
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#2 | |||||
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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One thing I'd like to bring up here is Sam's feelings as he crossed the river: Quote:
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Is there something in the elvishness of the waters that affects Sam's perception? Frodo has dreamt of 'crossing the river' - the Brandywine or the Anduin isn't specified, but there is definitely a timeless symbolism in crossing a river. In short, why is the Brandywine 'elvish'? |
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#3 |
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Laconic Loreman
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The Chapter name would be "A Conspiracy unmasked." If you ask me Tolkien is playing with our expectations, we expect something "big" to happen in this chapter, maybe something "evil," instead its quite peaceful and light hearted. The "conspiracy" is Merry, Pip,..etc finding out Frodo is leaving the Shire, and their plan to make sure he does so unnoticed. Anytime the Hobbits are in some sort of danger, theres this place, refuge, person, or thing who help the Hobbits out. They have black riders pursuing them, Gildor comes, they are lost in the forest, find Farmer Maggot, Tom Bombadil...etc.
My question here is Gandalf says The Shire is not "hid" anymore, or something to that effect. Revealing Sauron now knows about the Shire, and knows the ring is there. However, was Sauron really THAT interested in The Shire? We know Saruman had his own plans but what about Sauron? I was wondering because when the Hobbits leave the Shire there are no more stories of "Black Riders" in The Shire anymore. It just seems once Sauron finds out the ring has left the Shire, he doesn't care about that place anymore. All the Nazgul go and fight in the wars to come, and still pursue the ringbearer. There are no more stories of black riders being in The Shire, so to me it seems like Sauron really wasn't interested in the Shire in the first place. The only reason he sent his minions there was to find the ring. |
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#4 | |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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This is an important chapter. It is first of all the conclusion of the Hobbits' first journey, which occupies chapters 3, 4, and 5. It is also the last chapter set in the Shire until book VI (not counting the brief scenes in I. 11). And it is a chapter of some logistical importance - that is, it tells us who is going where.
Crickhollow is the third safe place we have encountered so far on the journey (the others being Woody End and Farmer Maggot's house), and in as many chapters. But each one of these safe places seems (to me, anyway) less safe than the last. With the Elves we fear no danger. Maggot certainly does not seem invulnerable; he is a fallible hobbit - but he is older and has a certain degree of authority. But at Crickhollow there is no authority figure, save Frodo (and Merry, I suppose). The danger has not really escalated all that much since the first encounter with a Black Rider. But the protection offered by the safe houses along the way has diminished. Estelyn wrote: Quote:
It's interesting that in chapters 3, 4, and 5 the party is made up of three, four, and five Hobbits, respectively. And in a sense in chapter 2 it consists of just two Hobbits - for it is there arranged that Frodo is to take Sam along. And this brings me to Fatty Bolger, one of those relatively minor characters that I am fond of for some reason unknown even to me. Perhaps it's because of the lack of recognition he receives - you'd be hard-pressed to find a reader that couldn't remember who Frodo or Sam or Merry or Pippin was, but I'll bet a lot of readers wouldn't remember Fatty Bolger. And yet he was in on the whole thing in the beginning just the same as Merry and Pippin. He even knew about the Ring! It's odd to think that while Gandalf is hiding the whole truth even from Theoden, and Denethor is just guessing it, there is away in the north in some hole or house in the Shire a Hobbit that knows all about the Ring. |
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#5 | |
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Laconic Loreman
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#6 | |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Boromir88 wrote:
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#7 | |
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Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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But I get ahead of myself -- focus on this chapter, Fordim, this chapter. (Should probably read it first, however. . .) |
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#8 | |
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Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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![]() Okay, okay. sorry. I shall finish the chapter and return in more appropriate form, but I am not quite sure just what the great value is of this chapter. The bathtime hijinks reminded me of davem's observations about the writing process for earlier chapters and the silliness over upper stories. For now, speaking of the poems as Estelyn does, I wanted to comment on Pippin's cavalier comment, "Oh, that was poetry," to Frodo. There really are a remarkable number of comments to the literariness of things here. |
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