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Old 07-19-2004, 04:46 AM   #1
Hilde Bracegirdle
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Skipping to the end of the chapter...

Every time I have read LoTR I have been struck by the frequency with which Frodo’s dreams are relayed early on, and how they taper off. If memory serves, the last being the dream in Tom Bombadil’s house. When pondering them I have the tendency to believe that these dreams have something to do with Gandalf (and not just the content of them). For though he is absent in person his mind is very much on Frodo, and having spent some time in Lorien, the istar might have gained a little knowledge from Irmo on dull afternoons.
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Old 07-19-2004, 06:01 AM   #2
davem
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Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle
When pondering them I have the tendency to believe that these dreams have something to do with Gandalf (and not just the content of them). For though he is absent in person his mind is very much on Frodo, and having spent some time in Lorien, the istar might have gained a little knowledge from Irmo on dull afternoons.
Originally Frodo's dream was very much to do with Gandalf - it was about Gandalf! In notes for an early draft Tolkien writes:
Quote:
Black riders pursue him - Gandalf has insufficient magic to cope with Black Riders unadied, whoes King is a wizard. They pursue him over Sarn Ford & he cannot (or dare not) go back to Shire.

Eventually he is besieged in the Western Tower. He cannot get away while they guard it with five riders. But when Black Riders have located Frodo & found that he has gone off without Gandalf they ride away.
And Frodo's dream, after the snuffling figures, runs:

Quote:
Suddenly he found that he had drawn near & the tower loomed loomed high above him. About its feet there was a wall of faintly shining stones, & outside the wall sat silent watchers: black robed figures on black horses, gazing at the gate of the tower without moving, as if they had sat there forever.

There came at last the soft fall of hoofs, climbing up the hill. The watchers all stirred & turned slowly towards the sound. They were looking towards Frodo. He did not dare to turn, but he knew that behind him another dark figure, taller & more terrible, had appeared: it beckoned, & called out in a strange tongue. The horsemen leapt to life. They raised their dark heads towards the lofty chamber, & their mocking laughter rang out cruel & cold; then they turned from the white wall & rode down the hill like the wind. The blue light went out.

It seemed to Frodo that the riders came straight towards him; but even as they passed over him & beat him to the ground, he thought in his heart: ‘I am not here; they cannot hurt me. There is something here that I must see’. He lifted his head & saw a white horse leap the wall & stride towards him. On it rode a grey mantled figure: his white hair was streaming, & his cloak flew like wings behind him. As the grey rider bore down upon him he strove to see his face. the light grew in thee sky, & suddenly there was a noise of thunder.
where the 'psychic' link between Frodo & Gandalf is spelled out. It seems like Gandalf was going to end up trapped in a tower one way or the other! This dream seems almost like a case of 'astral projection' in that Frodo is experiencing actual events, somehow present as an observer. The way Tolkien turns this into the symbolic dream which we end up with, retaining the basic elements of the original gives us a fascinating insight into how the creative process works.

One thing I'd like to bring up here is Sam's feelings as he crossed the river:
Quote:
Sam was the only member of the party who had not been over the river before. He had a strange feeling as the slow gurgling stream slipped by: his old life lay behind in the mists, dark adventure lay in front.
The reason this interests me is, while it may simply be Tolkien's way of communicating Sam's emotional state, there is something in Unfinished Tales (The Hunt for the Ring) which is a bit puzzling:
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My father nowhere explained the Ringwraiths’ fear of water....Thus of the rider (who was in fact Khamul of Dol Guldur*) seen on the far side of Bucklebury Ferry just after the hobbits had crossed it is said that ‘ he was well aware that the Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to his sense of movement’, & that the Nazgul would not touch the ‘elvish’ waters of Baranduin**.

*From notes recounting in detail the movements of the black Riders in the Shire it emerges that it was Khamul who came to Hobbiton & spoke to Gaffer Gamgee, who followed the hobbits along the road to stock, & who narrowly missed them at Bucklebury Ferry. The Rider who accompanied him, whom he summoned by cries on the ridge above Woodhall, & with whom he visited Farmer Maggot, was ‘his companion from Dol Guldur’. Of Khamul it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgul, after the Black Captain himself, to percievethe presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused & diminished by daylight.

**[At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch King & two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel & Aragorn.
Now its not so much the fear of water (& the interesting fact that we now at least know who it was that spoke to the Gaffer, & Farmer Maggot) that I'm getting at, but the reference to the waters of the Brandywine being 'Elvish'. Why? The Baranduin flows out of Lake Evendim, in Arthedain, where the Numeorean city of Annuminas was founded, but have I missed some Elvish connection - Saruman does tell the Lord of the Nazgul that the Shire is situated 'on the borders of the seaward elvish country', but would that be enough to make the Brandywine an 'elvish river'?

Is there something in the elvishness of the waters that affects Sam's perception? Frodo has dreamt of 'crossing the river' - the Brandywine or the Anduin isn't specified, but there is definitely a timeless symbolism in crossing a river.

In short, why is the Brandywine 'elvish'?
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Old 07-19-2004, 08:54 AM   #3
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1420! Chapter name.

The Chapter name would be "A Conspiracy unmasked." If you ask me Tolkien is playing with our expectations, we expect something "big" to happen in this chapter, maybe something "evil," instead its quite peaceful and light hearted. The "conspiracy" is Merry, Pip,..etc finding out Frodo is leaving the Shire, and their plan to make sure he does so unnoticed. Anytime the Hobbits are in some sort of danger, theres this place, refuge, person, or thing who help the Hobbits out. They have black riders pursuing them, Gildor comes, they are lost in the forest, find Farmer Maggot, Tom Bombadil...etc.

My question here is Gandalf says The Shire is not "hid" anymore, or something to that effect. Revealing Sauron now knows about the Shire, and knows the ring is there. However, was Sauron really THAT interested in The Shire? We know Saruman had his own plans but what about Sauron? I was wondering because when the Hobbits leave the Shire there are no more stories of "Black Riders" in The Shire anymore. It just seems once Sauron finds out the ring has left the Shire, he doesn't care about that place anymore. All the Nazgul go and fight in the wars to come, and still pursue the ringbearer. There are no more stories of black riders being in The Shire, so to me it seems like Sauron really wasn't interested in the Shire in the first place. The only reason he sent his minions there was to find the ring.
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Old 07-19-2004, 09:16 AM   #4
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This is an important chapter. It is first of all the conclusion of the Hobbits' first journey, which occupies chapters 3, 4, and 5. It is also the last chapter set in the Shire until book VI (not counting the brief scenes in I. 11). And it is a chapter of some logistical importance - that is, it tells us who is going where.

Crickhollow is the third safe place we have encountered so far on the journey (the others being Woody End and Farmer Maggot's house), and in as many chapters. But each one of these safe places seems (to me, anyway) less safe than the last. With the Elves we fear no danger. Maggot certainly does not seem invulnerable; he is a fallible hobbit - but he is older and has a certain degree of authority. But at Crickhollow there is no authority figure, save Frodo (and Merry, I suppose). The danger has not really escalated all that much since the first encounter with a Black Rider. But the protection offered by the safe houses along the way has diminished.

Estelyn wrote:
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Rereading this chapter made me aware of the fact that it is Merry who has the greatest role in it.
Each time I've read LotR I've realized more just how distinct the characters of Merry and Pippin are, even from the beginning. On earlier readings, I confess, I had thought of them as more or less identical - and I think this is the natural reaction of a lot of readers. But they are quite different. Pippin is a Took, Merry a Brandybuck - therefore Pippin has the Tookish curiosity and inclination toward adventure while Merry has the Brandybuck maturity. Pippin has a tendency to take up an adventure lightly, without worrying about maps and names and such things; Merry is little less likely to accept an adventure but is much more likely to do some research first. Pippin is a Hobbit of the Four Farthings; Merry is a Hobbit of Buckland and therefore knows a thing or two about the wider world. Merry has even been in the Old Forest. Pippin is altogether more like Bilbo and Merry more like Frodo - and this is no surprise, since Bilbo's mother was a Took and Frodo was raised in Buckland. Of course, Merry and Pippin are very similar in other ways. Both, after all, are inquisitive; and both are thoroughly Hobbit-like. The differences between them are very subtly drawn. This is a prime example to hold up in argument against those who criticize Tolkien's skill with characterization.

It's interesting that in chapters 3, 4, and 5 the party is made up of three, four, and five Hobbits, respectively. And in a sense in chapter 2 it consists of just two Hobbits - for it is there arranged that Frodo is to take Sam along. And this brings me to Fatty Bolger, one of those relatively minor characters that I am fond of for some reason unknown even to me. Perhaps it's because of the lack of recognition he receives - you'd be hard-pressed to find a reader that couldn't remember who Frodo or Sam or Merry or Pippin was, but I'll bet a lot of readers wouldn't remember Fatty Bolger. And yet he was in on the whole thing in the beginning just the same as Merry and Pippin. He even knew about the Ring! It's odd to think that while Gandalf is hiding the whole truth even from Theoden, and Denethor is just guessing it, there is away in the north in some hole or house in the Shire a Hobbit that knows all about the Ring.
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Old 07-19-2004, 10:08 AM   #5
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1420! Don't forget Chapter one.

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Aiwendil Quoted:
It's interesting that in chapters 3, 4, and 5 the party is made up of three, four, and five Hobbits, respectively. And in a sense in chapter 2 it consists of just two Hobbits -
Don't forget Chapter one which focuses on Bilbo. Yes, it has some info about Frodo, Sam, Ted, plus the Sackville-Bagginses. But, the main focus on this Chapter is Bilbo, Bilbo's party, Bilbo's ring, and Bilbo's departure. Interesting point you picked up Aiwendil.
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Old 07-19-2004, 01:35 PM   #6
Aiwendil
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Boromir88 wrote:
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Don't forget Chapter one which focuses on Bilbo.
True. But in 2, 3, 4, and 5 the process is cumulative. In two we have Frodo and Sam. Three adds Pippin. Four adds Merry. Five adds Fatty. Still it's a good point that chapter one focuses on a single Hobbit. Alas, the pattern is broken in chapter 6 (as it had to be at some point, or we'd have quite an army by the end).
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Old 07-19-2004, 01:55 PM   #7
Fordim Hedgethistle
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Alas, the pattern is broken in chapter 6 (as it had to be at some point, or we'd have quite an army by the end).
Ah, but in a way it's not -- for the hobbits encounter Tom Bombadil, who does not accompany them, but he does very much become a part of their quest. . .

But I get ahead of myself -- focus on this chapter, Fordim, this chapter.

(Should probably read it first, however. . .)
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Old 07-19-2004, 02:27 PM   #8
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Alas, the pattern is broken in chapter 6 (as it had to be at some point, or we'd have quite an army by the end).
Indeed, after six, that would be dicey indeed.

Okay, okay. sorry. I shall finish the chapter and return in more appropriate form, but I am not quite sure just what the great value is of this chapter. The bathtime hijinks reminded me of davem's observations about the writing process for earlier chapters and the silliness over upper stories.

For now, speaking of the poems as Estelyn does, I wanted to comment on Pippin's cavalier comment, "Oh, that was poetry," to Frodo. There really are a remarkable number of comments to the literariness of things here.
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