LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 05 - A Conspiracy Unmasked

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for adding those good thoughts about the second part of the river's name, "wine", Fordim! It seems to me that we have evidence for another of Tolkien's clever wordplays here. On the surface (no water pun intended ) we have a lighthearted river name that sounds like what the Hobbits seem to be at first glance - all about eating and drinking! But go down deeper and you find layers of meaning and of, well - depth, the toughness of the Hobbits. Those who live in Buckland are indeed "border-friends", if we combine two of those meanings.

Knowing how important names were to Tolkien, I can well imagine that he was fully aware of all of these connotations and used them on purpose. How like a linguist to combine several languages, including the archaic form, to make a name that seems simple yet has so much more to it than meets the eye! As a matter of fact, even within the context of the story, we have three linguistic layers to the river's name: Brandywine, Branda-Nîn, and Baranduin.

Now I'm curious about the "Buck-" part of the name. M-W online again -

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English bucca stag, he-goat

The presumed founder of the house of Oldbuck was Bucca of the Marsh, first Thain of the Shire. I'm not sure what significance that has; any additional ideas?

In answer to your question, Fordim, I think they had their heroic qualities inside them from the beginning - the circumstances only brought them out. I don't think adventures can make changes in a person unless the seed is already there.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Estelyn

Now I'm curious about the "Buck-" part of the name. M-W online again -
Quote:
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English bucca stag, he-goat

The presumed founder of the house of Oldbuck was Bucca of the Marsh, first Thain of the Shire. I'm not sure what significance that has; any additional ideas?

Some folkloric connections, considering Tolkien's desire to link the Legendarium into English myth & legend('bucca/pucca, buck/puck are linked etymologically). woodland creatures/earth spirits are possibly a good direction to look in:
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=...pdx.com&rnum=8

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I've said before and I will say it again -- the Oxford English Dictionary is the best book ever written (and we of course all know that Tolkien helped with putting it together!)

I had a look through all the various uses of "buck" and found this fascinating entry:

Talk, conversation; spec. boastful, bragging talk; insolence; esp. in phrase old buck

Now what does this suggest about Gorhendad? That he was 'all talk' in a way? That his venture out of the Shire and onto the edge of the Wild is in some way mere bluster and braggadoccio? This might indicate that the supposed adventurousness of the Bucklanders is not so great as it appears: they hold themselves out as the great visionary adventure seekers by having crossed the River, and yet when they get there they set up hobbit holes, build a high hedge against the world, and burn back the Old Forest. In effect, they settle down and once more become very very hobbitty, bragging about how they have 'left' the Shire but retaining it with all their strength.

Oldbuck's journey then is in stark contrast to what our hobbits are doing -- as this chapter makes clear in its tone, they are already somewhat out of step with their homeland, already disconnected from it, since they are well and truly leaving. They aren't just living in the border region, but going past and beyond it.

[Essex]

A few things regarding the Brandywine (Baranduin)

Around 1700 of the Second Age, as stated in Unfinished tales, Sauron was driven away by Tar-Minastir and his forces after great slaughter at Sarn Ford (the crossing of the Baranduin).

The ringwraiths fear of the water could stem from here. (But then they did use the actual Sarn Ford crossing to reach the Shire, so this is not concrete evidence).

More on the river: regarding people who seem to have been driven out of their homesteads by the Numenorians

and the native folk that survived fled from Minhiriath into the dark woods of the great Cape of Eryn Vorn, south of the mouth of the Baranduin, which they dared not cross, even if they could, for fear of the Elvenfolk.

Again we see (people this time) afraid to cross the river Brandywine.

I think it could just boil down to the fact that black rider and horse were not able to swim across the river, but could use Sarn Ford, which just required ‘wading’.

[mark12_30]

After finishing the chapter, my first reaction is a simple one: this used to be one of myleast favorite chapters, but now I think it is one of my most favorite. All the dark wandering and separation and evil the hobbits face in the war are cast into sharp relief by the backbone of this chapter: the wrenching in Frodo's heart as he prepares to leave his good friends, their steely determination that he will not escape their diligence, and his relief and joy at their companionship.

Frodo's surprise and indignation is wonderfully comic. Merry's firm gentle assertions deeply touch me.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I'm kind of jumping away from the topic at hand, namely the names of the River and Bucca... While I have a love for languages, I am no ace at entymology. I'm young, give me time. So my situation being as it is, I have nothing of value to add to that particular discussion, save to say that it is fascinating. I feel like I'm always learning when I log on at the BD's. Now, with apologies, I turn back to more familiar territory...

Ahh yes, another of my absoloute favorite chapters (A statement that I think I will be repeating over and over as we move through the beginning of the story)!
I love reading about the Hobbits back before all the horrible things that happen to them are much more than a trailing dark shadow, or grim foreshadowing.

This chapter really shows the three supporting Hobbits at their very best. So much fun to read! Especially the revelation of Sam as the spy. Frodo's surprise at how much Merry and Pippin know is absoloutely priceless. It's also sad in a way. They force Frodo to take them along, but none of them know the danger, or just how long and dark their journey will be...Frodo has a more accurate preception of it than the rest, but none of them know what they're in for in the long run, and Sam certainly has some sense of it. Pippin has encountered a Black Rider, and certainly is afraid of it, but how much of the danger he precieves, I do not know. Merry is really out of the loop as far as Riders are concerned. He hasn't encountered them over and over as the others have, but he is older than all but Frodo, I believe, and will probably be next to grasp the full seriousness of the situation. All three that have been on the journey have grown and changed, Frodo the most noticeably.

Each time I reread LOTR, my mind grabs onto some details it previously missed, rushed through, or just plain forgot. This time, what I fixated on was that Frodo has some really interesting dreams, at least throughout FOTR. Rereading this chapter gave me the chance to notice this paragraph, one that had somehow escaped my notice, or at least, my memory on my many other readings of this book...

Eventually [Frodo] fell into a vague dream, in which he seemed to be looking out of a high window over a dark sea of tangled trees. Down below among the roots there was the sound of creatures crawling and snuffling. He felt sure they would smell him out sooner or later.
Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew that it was not leaves, but the sound of the sea far off; a sound he had never heard in waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams...

It goes on to describe his sudden longing to see the Sea.

I find that so intrigueing because Tolkien seems to make a point of describing it, and of making it the last thing we read about in the chapter. I'm still not sure what it means... I was thnking he was on the Tower Hills, where Sam's daughter Elanor would someday live. I think that's where the Arthedain were located, correct me if I'm wrong: I'm not particularly good at geography, and Middle Earth's history at times gets a little foggy and confused in my mind. I'm not quite sure what significance that has, but it would appear that Frodo is seeing a real place in his dream, one that he has never been to before. Also, a connection to the Sea, even a longing for it, has been established. Thoughts?

OK, now you're free to go back to the deeper linguistic discussion. I'll go back to lurking around on this thread and learn all I can from it.

[mark12_30]

It goes on to describe his sudden longing to see the Sea.

I find that so intrigueing because Tolkien seems to make a point of describing it, and of making it the last thing we read about in the chapter. I'm still not sure what it means... I was thnking he was on the Tower Hills, where Sam's daughter Elanor would someday live...... but it would appear that Frodo is seeing a real place in his dream, one that he has never been to before. Also, a connection to the Sea, even a longing for it, has been established. Thoughts?

In a word, YES. Well put-- and deep, too.

If we follow this track (and I heartily agree) then Frodo is shown to be (a) prophetic, (b) called Westward, and (c) providentially going away from his desire. It reminds me of a certain rule, that he who would be greatest must become the slave of all.

Great post.

[Lyta_Underhill]

On the surface (no water pun intended ) we have a lighthearted river name that sounds like what the Hobbits seem to be at first glance - all about eating and drinking! But go down deeper and you find layers of meaning and of, well - depth, the toughness of the Hobbits.

I also get the feeling in this chapter that the appearance of the Hobbits as lighthearted and frivolous is only a mask, one that many of them have worn so long they forget how to be serious and how to face hard truths and challenges. Merry, Pippin, Sam and Fatty have not forgotten, and the 'unmasking' shows them to be the tough and true creatures that Gandalf became so fond of so long ago. This is one of my favorite chapters for one simple reason: there is an overwhelming sense, to me, of revelation, of help where it is least expected, of light in a bleak outlook. In short, I undergo all the surprise, joy and elation that Frodo does when the conspiracy is unmasked by layers, when his friends reveal themselves to be more true than he ever imagined, a light in the darkness.

Just as the Black Riders are showing the emptiness underneath their masks (the hood, which Farmer Maggot notices is so deep you can't see anything underneath it at all), his friends are showing their true colors and support beyond all Frodo's hopes. Even though Crickhollow proves to be only a stopping place, and as someone earlier said, Frodo is facing a houseless state, his friends have proven their willingness to sacrifice their comfort and safety for Frodo's sake, to help him take his home with him in a sense, the part of it that really matters anyway.

I know my thoughts aren't as coherent as they could be. I am also catching up, although I've read it quite a few times! I only hope I can keep up! But basically, this chapter is the one that uncovers the true beauty of hobbits, their earthy version of Light.

On another note, I find Pippin's tendency to overdo the exuberance of taking a hot bath to be another aspect of the hobbits' relentless lightheartedness, all the more pronounced for just having escaped an imminent danger, on the edge of another round of danger. I can't think of anything else, but I've quite enjoyed the etymological and historical posts as well!

Cheers!
Lyta