Elrond, why? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Angry Hill Troll · 07-27-2004, 08:59 AM

Elrond says the following at the Council (FOTR II, Ch2):

Quote:

It should have been cast then into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-Galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.

This scene, it seems to me, was actually portrayed in the movie quite faithfully to the book.

Probably, at the time, the extent of the Ring's corrupting influence was not clearly understood. It was through knowledge of its effect on Isuldur, and later Sméagol, that Gandalf was able to understand its true nature.

The Only Real Estel · 07-27-2004, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Probably, at the time, the extent of the Ring's corrupting influence was not clearly understood. It was through knowledge of its effect on Isuldur, and later Sméagol, that Gandalf was able to understand its true nature.

I agree with that for the most part, but I can't say that the movie followed the books account faithfully. Granted, I don't mind the change, but I would assume that just because 'Orodruin's fire was nigh at hand' didn't actually mean that they were inside of Mount Doom. Not to mention that Cirdan wasn't in the movie (understandably). I think PJ could've avoided the main question that started this thread just by having a debate on the slopes of Mt. Doom, but I understand he did it for dramatic reasons.

Vanya · 07-27-2004, 02:48 PM

Well, that scene certanly made Isildur look like villain, and that was not so. He was victime of his ignorance (he couldn't have known the Ring's nature, and I belive he looked at it as a trophy, a reward, a compensation). He was great man and king, and this event was very unfortunate.
Isildur and Elrond were cousins, after all; it would be more than murder if Elrond slew Isildur.

Voralphion · 07-27-2004, 06:23 PM

I don't think that Elrond actually could have thrown Isildur into the fire even if he had wanted to. Isildur was one of the mightiest of men at that time, being born and raised in Numenor. He was very strong, and coupled with the fight he would have put up to protect the ring, as he was under its power, Elrond wouldn't have had much of a chance to throw Isidur in.
Elrond couldn't have known what would have resulted if he had let Isildur leave with the ring. He probably thought that Isildur would eventually come to his senses and understand that the ring must be destroyed, which he did. He can't have known that Isildur would be attacked by orcs on his way back to the north and that the ring would be lost.

Silmiel of Imladris · 07-28-2004, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Elrond couldn't have known what would have resulted if he had let Isildur leave with the ring.

Posted by Voralphion

I don't know about that, the ring seems to have a "universal" effect on people. Elrond probably expected Isildur to be wise and chuck the ring in, but in a suprising and idiodic move Isildur kept the ring. Elrond did have to use to use foresight or a palantir here for "sadly now there can be but one outcome." Elrond knew things were going to just get worse as I think anyone would with a proper thinking session.

Vanya · 07-28-2004, 03:23 AM

Yes ,Simiel, if there was time enough for thinking.
The Ring never came in anybody's hands (man or elf) before Sauron was defeated. So, there was no experience on that subject (influence on man).
The Ring probably spoke to Isildur, and it was rush and bad decision which was result of ignorance, primarely. Luckily, he was slain by orcs, before it made real demage to him (turning him inti nazgul or something similar).
I don't think he could have been new Dark Lord, since he couldn't have had the power to wield it. I belive that Elrond sensed that, at least, even if he couldn't prdict the exact outcome

07-29-2004, 07:31 PM

Isuldor was a powerful man, noble in sprit and mind. Elrond could not just say "Do as I say pathetic mortal", the whole thing was about choices, free will and not being subjected to the demands of another (for that was Sauron's desire to dominate all other living creatures).

Another consideration was that Elrond had some inkling of the power of the ring and thought that he may be unable to destroy it and therefore sought for a pure spirit to do the deed. I do not think the second option is viable, but then again, one never knows with pointy ears.

07-27-2004, 06:23 PM	#4
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	I don't think that Elrond actually could have thrown Isildur into the fire even if he had wanted to. Isildur was one of the mightiest of men at that time, being born and raised in Numenor. He was very strong, and coupled with the fight he would have put up to protect the ring, as he was under its power, Elrond wouldn't have had much of a chance to throw Isidur in. Elrond couldn't have known what would have resulted if he had let Isildur leave with the ring. He probably thought that Isildur would eventually come to his senses and understand that the ring must be destroyed, which he did. He can't have known that Isildur would be attacked by orcs on his way back to the north and that the ring would be lost. __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

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07-27-2004, 02:48 PM	#3
Vanya Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Belgrade Posts: 43	Well, that scene certanly made Isildur look like villain, and that was not so. He was victime of his ignorance (he couldn't have known the Ring's nature, and I belive he looked at it as a trophy, a reward, a compensation). He was great man and king, and this event was very unfortunate. Isildur and Elrond were cousins, after all; it would be more than murder if Elrond slew Isildur.

07-28-2004, 03:23 AM	#6
Vanya Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Belgrade Posts: 43	Yes ,Simiel, if there was time enough for thinking. The Ring never came in anybody's hands (man or elf) before Sauron was defeated. So, there was no experience on that subject (influence on man). The Ring probably spoke to Isildur, and it was rush and bad decision which was result of ignorance, primarely. Luckily, he was slain by orcs, before it made real demage to him (turning him inti nazgul or something similar). I don't think he could have been new Dark Lord, since he couldn't have had the power to wield it. I belive that Elrond sensed that, at least, even if he couldn't prdict the exact outcome

07-29-2004, 07:31 PM	#7
shia'tan Guest Posts: n/a	Isuldor was a powerful man, noble in sprit and mind. Elrond could not just say "Do as I say pathetic mortal", the whole thing was about choices, free will and not being subjected to the demands of another (for that was Sauron's desire to dominate all other living creatures). Another consideration was that Elrond had some inkling of the power of the ring and thought that he may be unable to destroy it and therefore sought for a pure spirit to do the deed. I do not think the second option is viable, but then again, one never knows with pointy ears.