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#1 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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First of all,Fordim, n his essay, Tolkien as Phiologist, David Lyle Jeffrey gives a number of ‘speculative notes’ on ‘name meanings’ among them are:
Athelas=Old English-spirit of the King Balrog= Old english- bealu,evil & wreagan,to arouse Bilbo=Old English-Bil, a sword & -bo, (diminutive): short sword Elendil=OE-Ellende, adj (foreign, exiled Elessar=Old Norse-’one who appears in another manner. Fangorn=OE-’fang’, booty, plunder; cf fon (to imprison) ‘prison-wood, as well as beard-tree* Hobbit=OE-hob (generic name for clown, rustic), -bit, a diminutive suffix Saruman=OE saru (pain, sickness), or searu (contrivance, stratagem) * In an early version of the story Gandalf was to have been held prisoner by ‘Giant Treebeard. All of which, I think, are quite significant. As to the 'canonicity' thing. It seems to me we have the following alternatives: 1) Middle earth is Tolkien's own creation. He has decided that homosexuality simply doesn't exist - anymore than 15ft high rabbits or floating rocks. 2) Middle earth is a period of this world's history, some thousands of years ago. My original point was that if 1) is true, then Middle earth is not a period of this world's history, & any fiction, or adaptation, which attempts to be true to the canon, must take into account every 'fact' about Middle Earth, & the moral stance of the creator (as manifest in the work - whether it reflects exactly the author's 'true' morality is another question) is a 'fact' of that world , as much as 'immortal' elves, magic swords, & 'crystal balls'. We cannot introduce anything into the world, or any attitude, either, unless support for it can be found in the author's works. If, however, 2) is true, then while accepting all statements about the nature of that world - existence of Elves, dragons, mountains, etc, all the value judgements are up for grabs. Homosexuality would have existed then, as it has existed in all historical periods for which we have any evidence. So, we could introduce gay characters into Middle earth, with the justification that they must have existed - or at least we would be justified in asking anyone who denied that there were gay humans on earth x thousands of years ago to cite their evidence. So, we either take the whole package as an artistic creation, including the moral value system the author has introduced into it, or we take the bare 'facts' of dates, geography, physics & biology, & feel free to impose our own value system & interpret the events of the story as we like. First alternative means 'slash' is not only incorrect, but 'wrong', & also impossible, as impossible as the fifteen foot rabbits. Second alternative means 'slash' is entirely acceptable, as it is not logically impossible, much though some people (whether they could count Tolkien himself among their number is unknowable, as SpM has pointed out) might wish it to be. This really is a question about the extent to which we can separate the author's voice from the world he has created. If it was a real historical period we were dealing with we would attempt to do just that, & escape from the historian's biases, concious & unconcious, & draw our own moral lines. My feeling is that we simply can't do that, & that the moral values & judgements which run through the world are an essential part of it, & therefore cannot be removed from it, & have simply to be accepted. This means that someone who reads the books from this point of view, who enters into its moral vision fully, belives in the supernatural dimension, the miraculous intervention of Eru, etc, will get more out of it than someone who doesn't, & simply reads it as a story set in a fabulous world where wierd stuff just 'happens'. In other words, there is a 'right' way to read the books, & a 'wrong' way. |
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#2 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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Most of what I say about the importance of recovering the full meaning and connotations of names in LotR stems from several long conversations that I had with David many (many) years ago about that very subject. Whereas I speak but a little French and even less Spanish, David is fluent in (at last count) about a dozen languages living and dead, and the kinds of information he could bring to bear on the character- and place-names in LotR was bestaggering and awe-inspiring. Where he and I parted ways on Tolkien is pretty much where (I suspect) davem and I do as well: DLJ always insists that one must 'recover' not just the meaning of the names, but do so from within the specifically Christian ethos that Tolkien was working from. I didn't really agree with it then, and I'm not sure that I do so know -- but as DLJ explained to me then, the act of recovering this sort of meaning is a method of study that owes much to biblical exegesis, so it's only natural (he even argued "responsible") to proceed in that manner. Who am I to disagree with my mentor! ![]() ![]() PS Sorry if this looks like name-dropping; it truly is not meant as such. I'm just so tickled to see someone quoted herein whom I know. Now if someone ever quotes the one paper I wrote on Tolkien I will die of happiness (not that this is very likely to happen).
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Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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On the other hand, we are not free to see Sauron and (LotR) Saruman as the good guys because we are clearly told that they are not. Nor are we free to interpret their evil acts as noble or heroic or attractive because it is clear from the text itself that this is incompatible with the moral value system that Tolkien has incorporated into his world. So, if we are to accept the story, we have to accept it as a "given" that Sauron is evil and that his behaviour is (within the story) morally incorrect. Quote:
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 07-27-2004 at 05:56 PM. |
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#4 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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You have written a long and gracious and eloquent post, Child and say much with which I would agree--and, in fact, Fordim has already acknowledged a point I would respect, the need to be inclusive of several different perspectives. You are right--We cannot enter completely and wholly and naively into the mind and sensibility of a previous age!
I remember being told that the right way to go about literary scholarship was to read everything the author read and immerse oneself in the author's age so as to come to terms with what the author meant. How to ignore or overlook the intervening years between any author's and my own I was never told. How those intervening years might impinge upon an understanding of the author and/or text in question was a moot point from this perspective. Such a concern would be dismissed as irrelevant. And we could only study dead authors because they were the only ones who could be relied upon not to publish works which subsequently "proved" us wrong. It was an archeologoy all right. Take a look to see what constituted the study of "English literature" at the time Tolkien taught at Oxford to see this perspective in operation. (I do not ascribe this situation to Tolkien at all. In fact, I think he was ruefully disappointed in it, as his comments and shudders over academic syllabus show.) You have so graciously acknowledged many of the points here that I almost feel it is rude of me to disagree. Almost. But please bear with me. It is not any act of disrespect which causes me to question whether we can with absolute certainty say we know an author's intention. It is the experience of seeing that authors often write from depths of inspiration and thought which they themselves do not wholly or completely understand at the time of writing. Or seeing authors wish to withhold their true sense of intention from deliberate statement, wanting the work of art to speak for them. And even seeing authors deliberately engage in disguise and subterfuge as a way to challenge readers. The difficulty is always what to do with the passage of time. As you yourself pointed out, in the sixties, it was Tolkien's environmental focus which was the topic of interest. Now, with publication of The Silm, HoME and UT, the moral or religious focus is what draws many to Tolkien. Yet this focus--even, both of them I would say--was largely absent from the movies. which has brought the thrill of the ancient epics and sword play to the forefront of some people's interest. Are we to say that those who read Tolkien in the sixties were wrong because they didn't know of Eru? Are we to say that those who relish the warrior aspects are limited in their appreciation because they might denigrate the environmental issues? This issue of how time changes our perspective, even our definitions, pertains as much to historiography as it does to literary questions. Here in Canada, for both World War I and World War II, our participation was argued over, depending upon whether one felt we must rise to the call of the Empire and help defend England (English Canada) or stay out of the English dog's war (French Canada). In the United States, which entered World War II much later than Canada, there was a certain degree of sympathy for the Nazi Government. Only later in the war, when the extent of the genocide became apparent, did opinion coalesce. The same can be said for other wars. The American Civil War began over the question of the right of the southern states to secede. Only as the war progressed did the issue of slavery rise to the fore. (At least, this is the viewpoint I brought away with me after I visited Gettysburg.) Is there a lesson here in how cultures use moral issues to define historical moments? Maybe. While bowing to your expertise in historical matters, I would politely suggest that the issues which bedevil our attempts to find a definitive, absolute interpretation of literary works based on an ability to know truly a writer's intention also impede historical research. I think back to the difference perspective which you and Rimbaud had over the question of whether a "middle class" existed in the middle ages. How historiographers define issues can influence their findings and their histories as much as definitions thwart literary scholars. You suggest that the preferable way to define a response to Tolkien is through history rather than the kind of literary criticism which Fordim and I tend to use, maybe even davem, perhaps even Saucepan. And your justification for suggesting such an approach is Tolkien's own interest in history, which you say was more important than his interest in story. Yet I think back to 'On Fairy Stories' and his deliberations over the bishop and the banana peel. Things get into the cauldron of story to flavour the story, not because they have any historical objectivity. Which I suppose is my way of saying that there is indeed a continuum of interpretation and understanding as you suggest rather than davem's either or dichotomy. I don't see why a fanfic which explores an area Tolkien alluded to but left undeveloped, like Sauron's or Saruman's fall, is not possible within his moral universe. But perhaps that hinges on how we each define "hero". At the very least, I don't think 'historiography' is much more helpful to us than literary scholarship. When all is said and done, what we have are our words together, even when we disagree.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 07-27-2004 at 06:01 PM. |
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#5 | ||
Haunted Halfling
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules
Posts: 841
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Child of the 7th Age:
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If we treat Middle Earth as a world which transcends its creator, then there could be all sorts of “revisionist histories” written from the discoveries of other works. Just think what could be written by one who uncovered the Library at Minas Tirith or who found Saruman’s records at Orthanc, or who wrote simply from the Book of Mazarbul with no other reference. Tolkien’s conceit of “The Red Book of Westmarch” means that “The Lord of the Rings” is to be the travelogue of Frodo, with all Frodo’s idiosyncrasies, beliefs, moral values, etc. along with his extraordinary experiences. So, if one wants to take the argument to its internal point, the canon of Lord of the Rings is the Weltanschauung of one Mr. Frodo Baggins, his first person experiences and journalistic interpretations of his talks with others involved in the War of the Ring. I think the fact that this argument exists speaks to the verisimilitude and completeness of Tolkien’s creation of the realm of Middle Earth. When a world transcends the act of its creation, it strikes me in the same way Eru calling upon the Ainur to make music upon his themes would. I can see davem’s point about not allowing the discordant notes near a ‘canonical’ text, but also, I subscribe to Aiwendil’s view that no fanfiction or secondary writing is, by definition, canon (without getting into the sticky wicket of Christopher Tolkien's compilations/amalgamations/interpretations, i.e., Silmarillion etc.)*. That is not to say that fanfiction cannot enrich an already well-conceived world. Also, as painful as it might be to see the Morgoths and Saurons of this world exercise this right to expression, I cannot say they are not entitled to practice it, as long as they do not claim canonicity for their works. No badly written Mary Sue fanfiction is going to destroy the beauty of Tolkien’s world for me. There just isn’t enough power in it to do such a thing. That said, I often have thoughts of just how the subcreated ‘history’ would fare if documents from the other side were uncovered, if there was, say, a ‘scribe of Minas Morgul’ who kept a journal and recounted his experiences in the War of the Ring and had a very different view of what actually happened in the conflict recorded, according to Tolkien’s conceit, by Frodo Baggins in the Red Book of Westmarch. But, of course, Tolkien did not write this, so one could never call it canon. All this said, I must close with a blessing and a curse. Curse you and bless you, Fordim, for dredging up this topic again and taking my attention away from all the other little things I should have been doing! ![]() Cheers! Lyta *Note from above: I actually find sometimes that the notes of CJT enhance the 'historical' effect of JRRT's works by being speculation much on the order of what historians must do to interpret intent or objective truth from disparate sources!
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“…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.” |
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#6 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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![]() Canon is a tricky thing. To this point in the thread, I'm not sure that I've even really tackled it head on in terms of addressing what is an is not 'canonical', and I don't really propose to do so now as the idea of canon – of setting aside certain texts or kinds of texts as the 'real' Tolkien – tells us nothing about the texts or the author and everything about our own expectations as readers. If one believes that the meaning of a text resides wholly or primarily in relation to the author, then only works by that author will be canon; if one believes that the meaning of a text resides wholly or primarily in relation to the reader, then works or fan fiction (or parody) will be acceptable. This homiletic truth is born out, I think, within this very thread, for those who hold to the former position do not appear in the RPG forums, while those who hold to the latter do (more or less). This is not, obviously, a strictly either/or scenario, where there are only two positions available. I have argued elsewhere (quite convincingly, I might add ![]() So the problem of canon is even more fraught with Tolkien than is usual. But the good news is, the promise of canon is richer. This promise is the ability that it gives us to reflect upon our own expectations as readers, which is – finally – what canon is all about. The instant we decide what truly ‘belongs’ and what does not, we set up a very clear mirror into our own expectations and desires as readers. The more we want to define the canonical ‘truth’ of the text by the author, the more we want to turn to the mirage of authorial intention for meaning. The more we want to define the canonical ‘truth’ of the text by ourselves, the more we want to turn to the fantasy of individual response. In the end, I would suggest that the quest for Tolkien’s canon is an informative process, but futile. EDIT -- Cross-posting with Davem to whom I would like to say I agree whole-heartedly with the tripartite form of allusiveness you speak of in relation to the etymological pursuit of meaning in LotR.
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Scribbling scrabbling. Last edited by Fordim Hedgethistle; 07-28-2004 at 04:44 AM. |
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#7 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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As to etymology enhancing our understanding of the books, its interesting how it can reveal earlier versions of the story - ie Farmer Maggot's original, unpleasant character is prob. revealed through the name - 'maggotty'=cantankerous or drunken. The later character doesn't reflect these attributes at all, but they're there. Same thing with Fangorn=OE-’fang’, booty, plunder; cf fon (to imprison) ‘prison-wood, as well as beard-tree, which reflects the earlier version of the story, where Gandalf is imprisoned by Giant Treebeard, etc. Athelas means both 'spirit of the king' in OE & Kings foil (or leaf) in Sindarin.
But we have two 'levels' of inner/'hidden' meaning in Tolkien's books, the OldEnglish/Old Norse/Middle English, etc level, & the Elvish one, where subtle connections are made for readers - ie Strider telling the hobbits Frodo has been stabbed by a 'morgul blade' at weathertop - when we then hear the name Minas Morgul we consciously or unconsciously relate the the two places, just as we connect Minas Morgul with Minas Tirith, & Minas Tirth itself links back (for readers of the Sil) to Finrod's tower which guarded the Pass of Sirion. None of those connections are overtly stated, but they underlie the whole thing.
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 07-28-2004 at 04:55 AM. |
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#8 | |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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Very random thoughts off the top of my head late at night...
The more I think about it, the more I see Tolkien's efforts as directed at "world building" rather than simple "novel writing" in terms of Middle-earth and even LotR. How else can we explain the fact that the author used such a variety of forms and devices to express his creative intent for a period extending more than fifty years? A novel, a children's book, mythology and legend as expressed in the Silm, poetry and song, a myriad of invented languages and scripts, maps, colored illustrations and sketches, etymological exercises, heraldic devices, timelines: the list could go on and on. All of these were tools that he used to create the world of Middle-earth. And Tolkien made it quite clear in his letters that this world was somewhat open-ended, since he had wanted to "leave scope for other minds and hands", inviting gifted creators to come in "wielding paint and music and drama." How many authors invite the reader to add personal touches to his work? And what does this do to our concept of canon? Even if we confine our discussion to Tolkien himself, all of this diversity has to make the writings more difficult to assess, especially in terms of canon, whether we are talking about a single volume like LotR or the corpus as a whole. Even when we take up LotR and attempt to treat it as a novel, strange little things like languages, etymologies, poems, and such come creeping in, to say nothing of the histories set out in the Appendices. Maybe I was overly optomistic when I charitably described issues of canon as one of those questions that are "unanswerable"; Fordim may be closer to the mark when he says identifying canon is an "informative process, but futile". "Futile" is a strong word but I think there is some justification for that term. And yet I am unwilling to go as far as SpM in championing the freedom of the reader: accepting anything that's not specifically excluded by Tolkien, which I believe is the standard he laid out. (If I am mistaken in this, I apologize.) Like Davem, I am uncomfortable with fifteen foot rabbits or slash relationships (although my reasoning vis-a-vis history is totally different than his). I might let an ostrich or two slip in, but that's as far as I go. All kidding aside, there is a difference between ostriches, fifteen foot rabbits, and slash relationships. Each of these raises a different question. Ostriches are part of the natural world, so they may be lurking about in Middle-earth somewhere, most likely in Harad. Fifteen foot rabbits, in contrast, imply a revision of the rules of nature, in fact almost stepping beyond nature into the realm of outright magic. And there is surprisingly little "magic" in Tolkien, for reasons we've already discussed. If such large rabbits were a legitimate part of faerie or of myth, I might be willing to let them in the back door, but I'm not aware of any that are. The author has the prerogative to bring in Oliphaunts (which do seem to bear some resemblance to actual mastadons and mammoths), but that is his prerogative not mine. And when we come to "moral" questions and values, it gets even tougher. Everything I've read about Tolkien tells me that he was a Roman Catholic, and that his personal beliefs were shaped by that religious faith. I can find nothing to indicate his views on slash or pornography, for example, were divergent in this regard. Here, I am talking in terms of an "ideal" rather than getting into any questions about civil liberties and such, since this is a totally different issue. Again and again, Tolkien hammered away in LotR at the need for individuals to take a moral stand. SpM is certainly correct that Tolkien did not explicitly address such issues in LotR, but if I go by what I know about the author (not my own standards and beliefs which may be very different), then I find it hard to include either slash or explicit portrayals of sex between men and women. Allusions to sex and rape are a different thing: these certainly exist in Silm. There is a wonderfully tender kiss between Faramir and Eowyn in LotR that hints at the passion that lies underneath. But I would find it difficult to step beyond this in the context of Tolkien. To some degree, I do feel bound by what I know about the author. When he speaks of creating a world that is 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land long now steeped in poetry", I find myself treading very gently. Perhaps this is an emotional reaction rather than an intellectual one, but surely that has validity as well. Finally, Bb, Thank you for your post, which was very thought provoking. I agreed with much of what you said. You are correct in saying that we can never know the exact intention of the author (or the creator or the historian -- whatever term we care to use), which is not too different from saying that I can never wholly understand the past. But I think that the effort has to be made and that there are some things that lie in the dominion of the creator/author rather than the freedom of the reader. It's clear that all of us would draw the line at a different point. If sixties readers best appreciate trees, and modern scholars have discovered Eru, while young people enjoy the sword play, that is all to the good in my opinion. All of these things are implicit in Tolkien's writings. History feeds on variant interpretations: in the clash of ideas, new truths emerge. In fact, without changing ideas and interpretations, you'd end up with a very boring textbook that puts everyone to sleep -- the type that are used in many history classes! My problem in terms of Middle-earth comes only when something "foreign" is introduced, something for which I see little or no basis in the text itself, especially in the context of what I know about the author. One clarification: Quote:
Historiography is indeed a preferable way for me to understand the works, since I have more background and understanding in this regard than I would in terms of literary theories (or of psychological theories, for that matter). But it is a preference only for myself and not to be thrust upon anyone else who will want to forge their own path. Fordim is quite right in saying that diversity is the key here, with each reader applying what he or she knows best. In any case, it's quite clear that agreement on these issues is impossible to reach. Yet, despite the headaches, I think the effort is worth making. What the Silm project is doing is a case in point. It is not canon in any sense, but by the very act of selecting and making judgments, we are given a new perspective on certain aspects of the writings. Well written fanfiction and RPGs perform a similar function.
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. |
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#9 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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If this is the case, then it could be argued that any fanfic which was true to the spirit of the work could be considered 'canonical' as writers would be simply expanding Tolkien's world, with his permission. Of course, Tolkien, as Shippey among others has shown, was attempting to recreate an already existing mythology, & attempting to explain, for instance, why in Norse myth & Saxon legend there are references to Light Elves, Dark Elves, Elves of the Gloaming, Sea Elves, Wood Elves, etc. So Tolkien, in part , is not 'freely' inventing his stories, he is attempting to account for references in the old sources. So we could say that the Legendarium is an exercise in applied philology, an attempt to reconstruct a lost mythology, as much as an attempt to tell an entertaining story. |
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