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Old 07-27-2004, 01:50 PM   #1
Saraphim
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Several of you have mentioned Feanor, and his own pride and burning desire to never surrender, even in the face of certain death.

But what about his half-brother? Fingolfin, becoming so fed-up (for lack of a better term) with evil, and having lost most of his people in the Battle of Sudden Flame, an act that was unexpected and the opposite of chivalrous, decided to march (alone, mind you) straight to Angband to do single combat with Morgoth.

Fingolfin no doubt knew the odds that were stacked against him. He must have known that the Valar had all, at one point or another, fought Morgoth, and only just managed to hold him captive.

Any way you look at this, it is a suicidal mission. A single elf going against the most powerful creature in Arda.

And yet he went.

I don't think this is chivalry. I don't think this follows what some of you have said about the quest for glory, even though by that act Fingolfin won about as much honor as could be won. This was heroism, but it was also a sense of protection.

Fingolfin went, knowing he would most likely not come back alive. He went in the hope that somehow, he would save his people, who had already done so much for him by following him out of Valinor and into an uncertain fate.

I think the tale of Fingolfin is much better told in poetic for, as in The Lays of Beleriand than in the paragraph form of the Sil.

This could be something right out of Beowulf:

Quote:
...He was crushed, but not conquered yet...


When Morgoth's foot came crashing down, Fingolfin knew he was going to die. But in a last attempt, he took up his sword and gave his foe a limp for the rest of his life on Middle-Earth.

It was this, and the seven scars that the elven-king left as well, that Morgoth would remember. Fingolfin had died, but there were more out there with the same courage, and Morgoth would remember that.

In conclusion, Fingolfin was full of ofermod, and his actions had good effects, and did not harm anyone else but him.
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Old 07-27-2004, 10:13 PM   #2
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Rohan's is a 'death &/or glory' culture, very like that if the dwarves.
I beg your pardon?

Eowyn (Eomer) and Fingolfin

I’m going to deal with both of these at once because they are rather similar in my mind (sort of).

Eomer reacted in a passion during a period of intense stress. Such things are a natural part of combat. This in no way indicates that Rohan had a cultural policy of foolhardy battle-mania wildly driven on by unchecked pride. As I noted above, Theoden (who died in a way befitting a hero of that mode) never displayed that type of behavior. If he had he would have bravely charged the army guarding the road rather than chicken-heartedly going through Druadan Forest

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In conclusion, Fingolfin was full of ofermod, and his actions had good effects, and did not harm anyone else but him.
Fingolfin just sort of snapped. After the crushing defeat in the Battle of Sudden Flame, he just went a little funny in the head. Note the words “a great madness of rage was upon him.” I don’t believe that chivalry or pride had much to do with what happened. He just went crazy.

Anglo-Saxons

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But Anglo-saxon generals weren't 'sensible'. It was about more than simply winning, it was about winning honourably. Beortnoth believed, & so did his people, that a victory gained dishonourably was a moral defeat, & that it was better to go down fighting & win the moral victory.
If I wanted to be flip I would suggest there to be a strong correlation between this and the reason why they ultimately fell (or, in fact, fell several times). However, I have too strong a sense of history. The Anglo-Saxons were not as simple as that and they were not lacking in an appreciation of practical results as compared to moral victories, in spite of what their literature could lead one to think.

While this is probably not the place to discuss this at length, but just to provide a few instances:

King Harold Godwinson at the Battle of Stamford Bridge caught King Harald Hardrada with his pants down (or more accurately, with his chain mail off) and Harold singularly failed to do the honorable thing and allow the Norse to retire to the other side of the bridge, bring up reinforcements, and get their armor on before he pounced upon them.

King Alfred at the Battle of Edington not only sensibly snuck up on the enemy at dawn, but he seized the high ground and attacked the Vikings by charging down the hill to give his men the best advantage. That doesn’t sound terribly sporting to me.

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in their ofermod is darkly attractive
Perhaps these types of characters are best used to inspire people when they need to do something that must be done that (hopefully) cannot be avoided or dealt with in a better way. Perhaps it can even be used when the people in question are actually operating from an advantage.

Aragorn and Company

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& live to fight another day, or stage a tactical retreat, regroup, & make an organised assault on Sauron later. Aragorn decides to throw away his own life & the lives of his major allies - Eomer & Gandalf.
They could not retreat. They would easily be overtaken and surrounded. Once they were there they had little choice but to continue their little diversion on to the end. They would all have been killed anyway, in very unpleasant ways if they had surrendered.
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Old 07-28-2004, 02:26 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Kuruharan
Perhaps these types of characters are best used to inspire people when they need to do something that must be done that (hopefully) cannot be avoided or dealt with in a better way. Perhaps it can even be used when the people in question are actually operating from an advantage.
And that's it - the 'evolutionary advantage' if you like. Putting aside their actual behaviour & focussing on their literature, we have to say that the AngloSaxons held ofermod in higher esteem than the kind of 'cunning', logical behaviour in the examples you gave of actual battles. I'm not sure if there are songs or poems about Harold's or Alfred's exploits, but I suspect if there were they would depict them as displaying reckless courage over tactical cunning.

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Eomer reacted in a passion during a period of intense stress. Such things are a natural part of combat. This in no way indicates that Rohan had a cultural policy of foolhardy battle-mania wildly driven on by unchecked pride. As I noted above, Theoden (who died in a way befitting a hero of that mode) never displayed that type of behavior. If he had he would have bravely charged the army guarding the road rather than chicken-heartedly going through Druadan Forest
Well, I suspect that if Theoden had 'bravely charged the army guarding the road rather than chicken-heartedly going through Druadan Forest' (& won) he would have been held in even higher esteem than he was, & if his forces had been totalled by Druadan ambush in the forest, he would have been condemned for his 'cowardice' in refusing battle on the road.

But I can only cite Faramir's words to Frodo (don't have the quote to hand) about the Rohirrim being 'middle men' who held feats of arms & martial glory as things to be admired, & how even the Gondorians esteemed such things above music & lore.

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Once they were there they had little choice but to continue their little diversion on to the end. They would all have been killed anyway, in very unpleasant ways if they had surrendered.
I don't see this - Sauron had offered them terms of surrender - he wanted control, he wanted slaves, & he wanted that as quickly & easily as possible. I think if they had surrendered he would have accepted that, if for no other reason than that if he had taken their surender & then slaughtered them then everyone else in the west would have fought to the death, & it could have taken his years to achieve victory - indeed, it would have increased his chances of ultimate defeat - even with the Ring we can't be sure that he could hold back the whole of the people of the West, if they were certain that he would slaughter them if they surrendered.
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Old 07-28-2004, 07:53 AM   #4
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But I can only cite Faramir's words to Frodo (don't have the quote to hand) about the Rohirrim being 'middle men' who held feats of arms & martial glory as things to be admired, & how even the Gondorians esteemed such things above music & lore.
Perhaps if you scrolled back up to post #3, davem, you would see that the quote is at hand.
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Old 07-28-2004, 08:05 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Bethberry
Perhaps if you scrolled back up to post #3, davem, you would see that the quote is at hand.
Erm, yeah

My only excuse is that I was posting before rushing off into work & didn't have time to check board or books.

As an aside, has anyone checked whch are the most often quoted sections of LotR on the Downs? Or have we got most of the book here, scattered across the various threads?
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Old 07-28-2004, 09:54 PM   #6
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This has become a pretty broad thread.

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I'm not sure if there are songs or poems about Harold's or Alfred's exploits, but I suspect if there were they would depict them as displaying reckless courage over tactical cunning.
I’m sure there are. I am tragically unfamiliar with them, or at least I’ve forgotten reading about them. I know that Alfred’s story in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (an account which he was so thoughtful to sponsor for us) portrayed it as being more of a rags-to-riches story more than anything else.

Harold’s victory at Stamford Bridge is so overshadowed by his defeat at Hastings that perhaps not as much attention was paid to it by the English. There is a saga about the death of the Norwegian Harald. That one is certainly steeped in the traditional heroic mode, although (as usual) over the course of his life Harald did a number of things that according to that mode were decidedly unheroic.

Anyway…

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Well, I suspect that if Theoden had 'bravely charged the army guarding the road rather than chicken-heartedly going through Druadan Forest' (& won) he would have been held in even higher esteem than he was, & if his forces had been totalled by Druadan ambush in the forest, he would have been condemned for his 'cowardice' in refusing battle on the road.
Possibly no and probably yes. (Confusing enough?)

If he had defeated the army on the road his own force would have been in such shambles as to be no use in relieving the siege of Minas Tirith. Theoden clearly possessed a strong sense of purpose in what it was he was trying to do and what was needed in the situation.

Yes, if he’d been ambushed and wiped out to the last man in the woods it would not have been good.

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I don't see this - Sauron had offered them terms of surrender - he wanted control, he wanted slaves, & he wanted that as quickly & easily as possible.
Sauron was a pathological liar. Note the bit about “faithless and accursed.” Under no circumstances could the leadership of his enemies be allowed to escape or live. They could be the source of much trouble later. If I’d been Sauron I would certainly have killed them as quickly as possible. And why spare the army when a tremendous massacre could be used to inspire terror. I’d almost have rather that they fought so that I could give them a good trouncing and cripple the morale of the survivors on the other side of the river. Remember these were his enemies in arms that had marched right up to his gate.

Double Anyway…

Perhaps something about the appeal of ofermod is it attempts to provide comfort for the loss of family and friends. It is perhaps easier to accept if they died in a Thermopylaesque bout of over-heroics rather than as a result of “dear old Beorhtnoth was an overheated twit who did not understand his business.”
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Old 07-29-2004, 12:59 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Kuruharan
Sauron was a pathological liar. Note the bit about “faithless and accursed.” Under no circumstances could the leadership of his enemies be allowed to escape or live. They could be the source of much trouble later. If I’d been Sauron I would certainly have killed them as quickly as possible. And why spare the army when a tremendous massacre could be used to inspire terror. I’d almost have rather that they fought so that I could give them a good trouncing and cripple the morale of the survivors on the other side of the river. Remember these were his enemies in arms that had marched right up to his gate.
Right, I'm going to go off at a tangent here:

The question I'd ask is, whether massacring a surrendered army would inspire terror or desperation. I don't think Sauron would want to create a situation where his enemies felt they had nothing to lose, & would be slaughtered anyway. That would make them desperate, & they'd fight to the death.

The question that underlies this is how powerful Sauron would become with the Ring back in his posession. Would he become effectively God on earth, able to manipulate reality, cause his enemies to blink out of existence, etc - would it be absolute power, or would he simply become far stronger than anyone else, so that victory over him became virtually impossible. If he put all his enemies into a position where they felt they would die anyway, whatever they did, would he be sowing the seeds of his own ultimate defeat? I suppose this depends on the size of the population.

Perhaps it was a more complex matter - Sauron knew (or feared) that the Valar would intervene if he embarked on mass slaughter - would they stand back & allow the Eruhini to be obliterated? - if he was to achieve total victory his only chance would be to enslave the Children through getting their surrender, effectively being able to claim that they 'chose' him as their leader. This would put him in a position of danger, admittedly, as living enemies are potentially dangerous, but they would be more manageable than the Valar arising in their wrath against him. The Valar's role is to protect the Children, so they could not allow their wholesale slaughter, but they cannot intervene as dictators, so if they (the Children) surrendered & accepted Sauron's rule, the Valar would be in a difficult position, as overthrowing Sauron then would be interfering & 'imposing' their decision on the Children. If the Valar had intervened in this way & forced their will on Middle earth, to what extent would they be driven by pride, ofermod, in that assaulting Sauron, with the Ring in his posession, could have been as devastating in its results as the Assault on Morgoth. It seems to me that the only way Sauron could achieve his goal of domination of Middle earth, without risking his own destruction, would have been to accept the surrender of his enemies, & basically hold to what he'd offered the Captains - at least at first.
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