Gandalf vs. Sauron - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 07-30-2004, 08:11 PM

As Gurthang pointed out Gandalf being an "Istari" limitted his powers. So there Sauron had him beat.

Olorin was said to be the wisest of the Maia, but wisest isnt always the powerfullest. Sauron again as a Maia was more powerful then Gandalf (Olorin), there were a handful of Maia more powerful then Sauron, I will have to get it specifically who, but I do know there were 6-7 equal or greater Maia then Sauron,

obloquy · 07-31-2004, 06:39 PM

Just as a general rule, when making assertions to further your argument, it is helpful if you post textual support for those assertions. You'll see good examples of this technique in the posts I linked to.

Boromir88 · 07-31-2004, 07:41 PM

I tend not to go searching for info to prove points, I talk what I know, if I'm proven wrong then I will admit it. If I believe someone is wrong then I will go and search for "textual evidence," so far, no one has said I am wrong. I have found the Maia equal or greater in power then Sauron by the way.

That would be Ilmare, eonwe, and melian. That I know of. Ilmare was of Varda and was the mightiest of the maia. Eonwe was the herald of Manwe and was the strongest in arms. Melian is pretty obvious, she was made as a shield against evil, which what seemed like only Morgoth himself could break, certainly not Sauron. This can be found in the Maia part of the Sil, Valaquenta.

Voralphion · 08-01-2004, 07:38 PM

I think I have read somewhere that in the beginning Sauron and Olorin were equal in innate power. Gandalf however was severely restricted in his use of that power, as he was not allowed to use his power openly and couldn't contest Sauron directly using it, (Sauron had no such restrictions). Also, much of his power was lost to him by the process of becoming incarnate when he became an Istari.
As stated earlier, Olorin was by no means the most powerful maia, some more powerful than him that come mind are; Eomwe, Ilmare, Melian, Osse and probably Arien.

Elfstone · 08-04-2004, 10:46 PM

There's a pretty good side debate in this thread about Gandalf vs Sauron - http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...3&page=1&pp=40

Dûrbelethwen · 08-05-2004, 04:23 PM

I have just found the answer to my own question in "Unfinished Tales". In the section about the Istari it says this : "
it was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force or fear."

Elfstone · 08-07-2004, 09:21 PM

How does that answer your question? Being forbidden to match power with power means only that Gandalf wasn't allowed to take on Sauron directly. It's doesn't answer the question of whether or not he was up to the task.

07-30-2004, 08:11 PM	#1
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Beat both times As Gurthang pointed out Gandalf being an "Istari" limitted his powers. So there Sauron had him beat. Olorin was said to be the wisest of the Maia, but wisest isnt always the powerfullest. Sauron again as a Maia was more powerful then Gandalf (Olorin), there were a handful of Maia more powerful then Sauron, I will have to get it specifically who, but I do know there were 6-7 equal or greater Maia then Sauron,

07-31-2004, 07:41 PM	#3
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Talk what I know I tend not to go searching for info to prove points, I talk what I know, if I'm proven wrong then I will admit it. If I believe someone is wrong then I will go and search for "textual evidence," so far, no one has said I am wrong. I have found the Maia equal or greater in power then Sauron by the way. That would be Ilmare, eonwe, and melian. That I know of. Ilmare was of Varda and was the mightiest of the maia. Eonwe was the herald of Manwe and was the strongest in arms. Melian is pretty obvious, she was made as a shield against evil, which what seemed like only Morgoth himself could break, certainly not Sauron. This can be found in the Maia part of the Sil, Valaquenta.

08-01-2004, 07:38 PM	#4
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	I think I have read somewhere that in the beginning Sauron and Olorin were equal in innate power. Gandalf however was severely restricted in his use of that power, as he was not allowed to use his power openly and couldn't contest Sauron directly using it, (Sauron had no such restrictions). Also, much of his power was lost to him by the process of becoming incarnate when he became an Istari. As stated earlier, Olorin was by no means the most powerful maia, some more powerful than him that come mind are; Eomwe, Ilmare, Melian, Osse and probably Arien. __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

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07-31-2004, 06:39 PM	#2
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Just as a general rule, when making assertions to further your argument, it is helpful if you post textual support for those assertions. You'll see good examples of this technique in the posts I linked to.

08-04-2004, 10:46 PM	#5
Elfstone Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 30	There's a pretty good side debate in this thread about Gandalf vs Sauron - http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...3&page=1&pp=40

08-05-2004, 04:23 PM	#6
Dûrbelethwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 80	I have just found the answer to my own question in "Unfinished Tales". In the section about the Istari it says this : " it was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force or fear."

08-07-2004, 09:21 PM	#7
Elfstone Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 30	How does that answer your question? Being forbidden to match power with power means only that Gandalf wasn't allowed to take on Sauron directly. It's doesn't answer the question of whether or not he was up to the task.