distortions in relationships in LOTR

[Lyta_Underhill]

Certainly. There were always those who walked out of Sophecles Oedipus Rex shaking their heads, thinking "Oedipus was a proven warrior. He would never have been so emotional...." etc., etc. There is room to disagree with interpretation of the myth. But regardless of your feelings about Oedipus, (or dragons), the artistic merit of the work should stand on its own, according to Tolkien.

The "it is not canon" argument is spurious and contrary to Tolkien's views.

What an interesting addition your views would be to the "Canonicity" thread in the Books forum, Maril! I seem to fall into the category of defining the Tolkien-written material as the only "canon" material, but, with regards to fanfiction, I see no need to be strictly "canonical," as it is an interpretation and not part of the original work. But then we fall into the trap of wondering whether Christopher Tolkien's compilations and interpretations are "canon." It is quite interesting that Tolkien's Middle Earth has come together in the way it has, in a historical fashion, much in the same vein as his own style of writing--the primary world echoing the sub-created one. My favorite fanfictions are written in this style as well, and, while I have stayed away from LOTR slash stories (for the reason that it doesn't fit my interpretation of the characters), I certainly have nothing against slash as a form of fanfiction. Indeed, the question of alteration of canonicity might make such a thing plausible (in what I would call a "non-canonical way") by presenting the point of view of a different character's take on the War of the Ring. But, since the Tolkien-penned version is the story as written by Frodo Baggins in the Red Book of Westmarch, I have a hard time believing in Frodo/Sam slash. (Unless Frodo marked out some passages in the Red Book before Tolkien 'found' it!)

I am intrigued by your interpretation of mythology as fanfiction, however, and such a treatment for LOTR would transport it out of the realm of popular fantasy fiction and into the realm of a mythology itself, a reality beyond the point of its creation, a real trip into Faerie! Now that I've rambled off the beam a little, I'll close and wish you all happy reading, whatever you choose for reading material!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Encaitare]

Thanks for being accepting, Lyta!

And if I were Frodo, I certainly would have torn those pages out before anyone could find them!

[Ainaserkewen]

I think people need to lighten up.

Not to say that slash is wonderful (I think it is) but it should be up to the reader's descression. Slash, at least to me is not distortion of the characters, it's the imagination of the reader. Imagination is such a terrible thing to waste, I say, anything goes. Everyone's mind can come up with the sickest, weirdest, most beautiful things ever, and it's up to everyone else to accept them as ideas, not wastes of time and energy, or worse, telling them that they're wrong. I'm not saying that you have to love it, but people are going to do and think what they want, so why fight it. You don't have to embrace it, just not condemn it.

[Diamond18]

Another thread pertaining to the subject.

[Sapphire_Flame]

Out of curiosity, what are your opinions on AU fiction?

It varies from fic to fic. I have nothing outright *against* it, per se. Occasionally I find an author's AU to be slightly disturbing, and so I discontinue reading. Sometimes the story is put together with few-to-no plot holes and decent coherency, and a minimum of modern-day ethics. These, I applaud, and usually end up on my favourites list.

I can see where you're going with this, by the way. I know that slash is usually presented as AU. Huzzah. Just because I'll read and enjoy some AU doesn't mean I read all of it.

To appease the liberal masses, I will admit I have read some slash. A couple were quite well written, and I respect that. The ones that are more emotionally based rather than erotically based are a bit better, in my opinion. But that's only my opinion. You all have yours' on the matter as well.

And just so everyone will stop being so PMSy at me, I will APOLOGIZE if I happened to offend anyone with my previous post. I was rather...blunt, and I'm sorry that my opinion was taken the wrong way.

Everyone is entitled to write what they want. And everyone is entitled to read what they want. We do not have to force our opinions on others. I don't particularly enjoy slash. Some of you do. So we just have to agree to disagree.

These "review" posts become tiresome and long.

So don't post them. Simply tell me to go back and read it myself.

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Evisse the Blue]

But regardless of your feelings about Oedipus, (or dragons), the artistic merit of the work should stand on its own, according to Tolkien.

I got two problems with this: One - No fic writer I've ever seen has shown the talent of Sophocles, in other words, I've yet to see a Tolkien fic that is so well written, be it slash or no, that the sheer artistic merit of the work would justify its 'non-canonicity' (if that's a word )
The second problem is that I really don't feel comfortable with you using Tolkien's arguments on Beowulf to defend slash fic. Tolkien was quite an intolerant man, in that he had very categorical views and he didn't mince words when it came to things he plainly disliked. I'm sure that he would have acted very differently if the subject matter of Beowulf involved slash. Dragons, now that's another matter: dragons was something he was quite fond of and could relate to. Bottom line being: There are degrees of canonical bend, and the way I imagine Tolkien, he would have hated slash fics, be them well-written

And on top of that, there's the question of ownership. He did say validity is much less important than the quality of the work, but I doubt he would have said the same thing if someone meddled with his characters. Mythological characters are ambiguous, symbolical and collectively defined; they are endowed with new, sometimes even conflicting atributes over the ages. But here we have a work that is the product of an intelectual mind who knew exactly where he was going with his characters and subject matter. Everything in Tolkien's world falls into place like a perfected piece of a giant puzzle. Non-canon fic is a hurricane which shatters this delicate balance simply to see where the uprooted pieces would land and what the overall effect would be. The problem is that, by uprooting these pieces, (read characters), they lose their initial meaning, therefore all their world loses meaning. So in this case, subject matter and artistic quality are interwoven and difficult to separate.

[Diamond18]

I think Evisse has just put into words my feeling on the subject. Regardless of personal opinions on homosexuality, slash, fanfiction in general, the matter comes down to whether or not ones cares about what Tolkien would think of the derivative work. From what I know of Tolkien (having reads his books and the Letters) I am fairly certain he would not approve. I can't say 100% certain simply because I cannot come up with a quote that outright disapproves of the exact things discussed here. I am not particularly interested in turning the thread into a “Would Tolkien approve of homosexuality?” debate, but if any strong proof that he would is presented, I wouldn’t complain. But as things stand, I just don’t believe he would. So in that case, anything so blatantly against his values is disrespectful and I don't see anything around it, no matter how serious or circumspect a certain story is. (This is similar to the way movieFaramir still bothers me because I don’t think the filmmakers can satisfactorily explain going diametrically opposite to Tolkien’s acknowledged feelings about the character, even if the EE makes him a more sympathetic sort).

I may not be one to talk. I haven't written slash, but I have written unabashed parody which I would not dare fool myself into thinking Tolkien would like. Still, I’m not saying it is anything but a parody. An acknowledged mockery. I don’t think you can honestly go against Tolkien’s morals using his actual characters, without disrespecting the man’s story. I certainly don’t mind a bit of irreverence. But let’s call it what it is.

Another disclaimer: the only LotR slash I have read has been casual and comedic. I haven’t read Maril’s or Encaitare’s and don’t seek to insult either of you as writers. Like Evisse, I just don’t see as how Sophocles or Beowulf or world mythology in general really proves the point that slash can be a serious addition to Tolkien’s novels. Especially since they are just that: novels. Culturally significant novels, surely, but still the work and property of one man, based on established archtypes and myths, not a new myth itself. That, in my opinion, makes it less malleable, as Evisse points out:

But here we have a work that is the product of an intelectual mind who knew exactly where he was going with his characters and subject matter. Everything in Tolkien's world falls into place like a perfected piece of a giant puzzle.

But who knows. Maybe one hundred or hundreds of years from now the “Tolkien” in LotR will be considerably blurred. I can certainly believe that newly invented homosexual characters could inhabit the world of Middle-earth, since whether you believe it to be right, natural, moral etc. or not, people all over the world do it and always have. So they would almost certainly exist, especially considering M-E as a fictional pre-history. I think that if Tolkien were to write a homosexual character he would not make him the hero or condone the behavior, but if the populace ever truly absorbs LotR as a myth in and of itself, very few will know or care about that. But we have so many things documented about Tolkien that I doubt people could really distance him that much from his books unless they were trying hard to get rid of the man behind the story.

(On last disclaimer: I'm not even a big fan of serious fanfic, even if it is carefully made as "true to Tolkien/other writer" as humanly possible. I suppose it is because I prize original writing so much it seems a waste to me personally to conform myself to another person's ideas and ideals, therefore I don't enjoy reading it that much either. I don't mean this as a condemnation of serious fanfic: I just thought to make my perspective on it clear, so I may be roundly discredited as one who just doesn't understand. )