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Old 08-26-2004, 01:48 PM   #1
Lalwendë
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Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Well, these posts have certainly made me laugh! Before I go on, I have to say...I admire Faramir too. But I'm going to sit on a rickety old fence and say I like them both! Now, I'll put my Aragorn fan 'hat' (hood?) on and defend him.

First of all, I'm always struck by how close the name Aragorn is to the word arrogant. Bear with me here... I am thinking of two types of arrogance. There is the type which can also be termed 'pride', and as the cliche goes, comes before a fall. But there is also the type which can be applied to a person who is sure of themselves, which denotes a person with bearing, and immense confidence, as seen in great military commanders. They must maintain their appearance of command in order to inspire others to follow them. This would certainly apply to Aragorn in the latter stages of the War of the Ring.

And a little more linguistics. Aragorn is also a word remarkably close to Argent, which means gold, if I am not mistaken?

Now, as for Aragorn being a 'prig' (Mithalwen, I love that word!), I had to go and find an instance where he was definitely not a prig! When Boromir dies, Aragorn's emotions spill to the surface, and he is distraught. What is more, this shakes his own faith in himself.
Quote:
"Now the company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me. What shall I do now?"
This scene has always deeply affected me, not only as I found Boromir fascinating, but I hated to see Aragorn so distressed and shaken.

I have been trying to think of the best word to describe the loyalty and love which Aragorn inspires in others, and I think the word is fealty. He inspires fraternal love, the urge to follow his lead, to strive to be like him. Again, this reminds me of certain military leaders who have been admired by their troops. Interestingly, it is this which attracts Eowyn to him, showing that this admiration is not just felt by the males in Middle Earth!
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Old 08-26-2004, 02:36 PM   #2
Fordim Hedgethistle
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The points that Lalwende raises about Aragorn's name reminds me of something that I posted to another thread earlier this summer. I will indulge myself and reprint a bit of that post here:

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• ‘Ar’ is Old English (the language that Professor Tolkien devoted his professional life to studying and teaching) and has several meanings. When applied to a person it denotes a messenger, in particular a servant or herald of God (angel or apostle). When presented as a quality it means glory, honour, reverence, dignity, grace, favour or pity.

• ‘agorn’ (in OE) means to have or possess, or to deliver and restore; it can also mean to come forth, grow, or approach.

Aragorn’s name therefore has been very carefully chosen by Tolkien to mean the possession, approach and restoration of all that ‘ar’ denotes.
It didn't occur to me at the time, but Strider's characterisation in this chapter brings all this out nicely: his heroic nature is not immediatly apparent but is instead allowed to "come forth, grow" throughout the chapter. He also introduces himself to the Hobbits as a friend of Gandalf (and thus as an 'angelic' herald?) and it is, pointedly, only when the hobbits meet Aragorn and begin to trust him that they do get the letter from Gandalf (and thus truly an angelic message, that is attesting to the heroism -- ar -- of Aragorn).
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Old 08-26-2004, 02:43 PM   #3
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But I must admit,' he added with a queer laugh, 'that I hoped you would take to me for my own sake. A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust & longs for friendship
Like Davem, I always find this very touching!

My impression of Aragorn is not of a "flat character"at all. (Yes, I've read the whole "psychological depth in Tolkien's characters" thread! and I don't want to start a discussion. this is just my opinion. ) There's much more to him than meets the eye, and throughout the book we get to know more about him.

When I reread the chapter now, I wonder a bit about the broken sword - was Aragorn really lugging that around everywhere? "not much use" as a weapon, indeed... But I guess it came in handy in this scene to prove he was the real Strider!

Your information about the anapests and yambic verse was interesting, Fordim. (I have nearly forgotten all that I've learnt once, it seems...)
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Old 08-27-2004, 02:20 AM   #4
davem
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davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
A couple of other things struck me in this chapter - one: Frodo having to accustom himself to being suspicious of others. He's left a world where most of those around him weren't any kind of threat, they were people he'd grown up around, who he knew well for the most part. The threat came from strangers, & they were few & far between. Now he's entered a world where almost everyone is a stranger, & a potential mortal enemy - even getting up in a pub & singing a song can lead to disaster. He must from now on be suspicious of everyone he meets, & that's not his nature. Its another step on the road to his corruption by the Ring. He can't retain his innocence because the Ring is too dangerous. Another example of how the Ring works subtly to corrupt anyone who possesses it.

Two: the first appearance of the 'Black Breath' (or Black Shadow). Merry here gets his first experience of it - the next will be on Pelennor Fields. The presence of evil draws him towards it, & then the Black Breath causes him to fall into an evil dream (why does he dream of falling into 'deep water', I wonder?). The dream induced by the Black Breath produces evil dreams & ultimately death, but do the Nazgul actually 'breathe' out a poison onto their victims, or is it something else, a magical aura which surrounds them? So, evil draws the individual to it, swallows them up in a nightmare & finally takes their life, but why is evil seductive in that way:what is Tolkien saying? Its also interesting that at the end of the Barrow Downs chapter its Merry who had the strange dream of having been slain by the men of Carn Dum, servants of the Witch King - he does seem destined to have run ins with him, though why Merry is so drawn to this source of evil is another question.
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Old 08-27-2004, 04:55 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle
But that is enough of such silliness. End of swoon. Return to more sensible posts.
But sir, Aragorn deserves all the swooning he can get! As long as someone explains the reason for swooning...but is that even called swooning at all? Anyway...

davem, I believe the Black Breath is merely the aura of evil surrounding the Nazgul, which comes from within them (kind of like "what is in the heart spills out" or something like that). This can be proven by the infliction of so many soldiers in the Battle of the Pelennor...oops. *curtsies to Esty*

And evil indeed works similar to the way the Black Breath does. You may have no intention nor desire of being entangled with it, but as long as you are exposed to evil, you will inevitably be caught up, but not necessarily imprisoned, within it.
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Old 08-27-2004, 05:26 AM   #6
Fordim Hedgethistle
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The Black Breath is indeed an effective way for Tolkien to manifest the 'power' or effect of evil -- or, rather, his view of evil. A breath is something that has an effect, one can feel it, but it has no substance of its own. A breath is an effect (of one person blowing on another) and not a thing in and off itself. Breath is also germaine to life and living, so the Black Breath would seem to be something that is contrary to life, but not some kind of indepedent (Manichean?) opposite to life -- it's not death, but deathly. Like the Nazgul themselves who are caught in the middle realm, "neither living nor dead" (if I might be allowed to quote movie-Aragorn). This perhaps points the way toward an understanding of the dreams Merry has -- the effect of the Nazgul (and the Wights) is a death-like suspension in a dream realm. The Black Breath cannot rob one of life (the "divine spark"?) it can only overwhelm one with a sleep. This is, of course, on the 'magical' or 'spiritual' level that they seem to be operating -- the Black Riders can easily kill somone with their sword, but that's a physical death, not a death of the spirit.

One final note that's just come to me as I review the chapter. There's an interesting way in which Butterbur, of all people, is being connected to Treebeard!! Bear with me:

When Butterbur finally remembers the letter he says:

Quote:
But now I don't know what he'll have to say to me, if I see him again: turn all my ale sour or me into a block of wood, I shouldn't wonder. He's a bit hasty.
And in Gandalf's letter, as has already been alluded to in the thread, he refers to the innkeeper as

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A worthy man, but his memory is like a lumber-room.
One last connection, slender though it might be (like a willow branch) is the absence of any Mrs. Butterbur. As far as I can recall, this is the only house-with-fire-light in the book in which there is not a female presence. Like the ents without their entwives, Butterbur lacks the 'balance' of the feminine?

Oh! And one more think just popped into my head. It's here at the Pony that Aragorn is hoping to meet Gandalf but does not, and he's come here in order to try and find and protect the hobbits. It's in Fangorn that Aragorn meets Gandalf when he does not expect to, and he goes to Fangorn in the first place to find and protect the hobbits!

Butterbur as some kind of human/comic form of an Ent? He and Treebeard do seem to 'bracket' Aragorn's journey in a sense, or, at least, an important stage of his journey. Here in Butterbur's realm he takes up the task of aiding the Ring Bearer, and in Treebeard's realm he sets that task aside. It seems that in some way Aragorn is himself 'moving' (not growing, he is already perfect!) from Butterbur to Treebeard.

Oh oh oh! Butterbur has a terrible memory -- he remembers nothing, including the lore that would tell him who Strider really is. He lacks the abilty to give Aragorn the recognition that he deserves. Treebeard's memory on the other hand. . .enough said. Of course, Aragorn and Treebeard do not actually meet in Fangorn (getting ahead of myself again, sorry) perhaps implying that Aragorn is moving into a time/realm when he will be remembered, but not quite yet? Must look up the part when Treebeard finally does greet Aragorn. . .
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Last edited by Fordim Hedgethistle; 08-27-2004 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 08-27-2004, 05:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle
One last connection, slender though it might be (like a willow branch) is the absence of any Mrs. Butterbur. As far as I can recall, this is the only house-with-fire-light in the book in which there is not a female presence. Like the ents without their entwives, Butterbur lacks the 'balance' of the feminine?
Senseless as this might be, the absence of Mrs. Butterbur may be one of the reasons why I hardly found the Inn comforting. There is always a certain comfort that the presence of a female offers, as we can feel at Tom Bombadil's house, or in Rivendell, or in Lothlorien.
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Old 08-27-2004, 05:51 AM   #8
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Interesting thoughts on the Inn/Barliman/Gandalf/Aragorn, Fordim! There's a connection at the end of the story to which I'd like to point only briefly, but as it's a bookend type reference, it does deserve mentioning here. Gandalf accompanies the Hobbits to the Pony but leaves them after that. As his failure to meet them there sparks the beginning of their growth to independence, his leaving them to take care of the Scouring alone marks the reached goal of their growth!
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Old 06-09-2006, 08:11 AM   #9
Guinevere
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Originally Posted by Guinevere
When I reread the chapter now, I wonder a bit about the broken sword - was Aragorn really lugging that around everywhere? "not much use" as a weapon, indeed... But I guess it came in handy in this scene to prove he was the real Strider!
As you see, I had wondered about this too in 2004, but no one else seemed interested in this question then.

I quite agreee with Selmo!
When Aragorn was (As Thorongil) in the service of Thengel and of Ecthelion II , he must have had another sword!
For the scene in Bree the broken Narsil was necessary for the plot to identify Aragorn, and I just guess that for once Tolkien didn't think of the consequences...

As for PJ having the better idea by showing Narsil being kept in Rivendell, I agree, but from then on, Aragorn should have carried Anduril. Elrond later traveling all the way after him to bring the sword is just ridiculous!!
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Last edited by Guinevere; 06-09-2006 at 08:15 AM. Reason: an afterthought
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Old 06-09-2006, 08:27 AM   #10
alatar
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alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.alatar is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
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Originally Posted by Guinevere
As for PJ having the better idea by showing Narsil being kept in Rivendell, I agree, but from then on, Aragorn should have carried Anduril. Elrond later traveling all the way after him to bring the sword is just ridiculous!!
Trust me. PJ's 'getting it right' moments don't last very long.
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