The History of LotR - Chapter-by-Chapter Companion - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mark12_30 · 08-27-2004, 09:11 PM

Child, you put it so eloquently... Yes, Bingo and Trotter's story is different than Frodo and Strider. It's a different book. And I like it that way. It's almost like they are ancestors, or something. (Parallel Universe, anyone?

)

davem · 08-28-2004, 02:13 AM

Its different near the Shire

And so it is, because with the appearance of Strider we are suddenly in a bigger, older world. If Tolkien had continued with his original idea we would have remained in the world of the Hobbit, Bombadil & Farmer Maggot.

Aragorn changes the whole story. As Child says, he is the link to the Sil. This is fascinating for me. The appearance of a single character changes the whole story. It is no longer to be a children's book, it is no longer to be a fairy story, it even changes its purpose - no longer a sequel to the Hobbit, its now the culmination of the Silmarillion.

Having said that, I like Trotter, & I can't help wondering what kind of adventures he'd have lead the hobbits on. Of course, one could speculate that as time passed. at least for hobbits in their rural isolation, the whole history of the end of the Third Age became a fairy story - Bilbo became 'Mad Baggins' who disappeared with a bang & returned with wagon loads of treasure, Sam chased black men up mountains & Aragorn became a mysterious hobbit who wore wooden shoes. Its almost like Tolkien first 'discovered' this version, & then slowly worked backwards to discover 'what really happened'.

Estelyn Telcontar · 09-03-2004, 04:14 AM

What an interesting thought, davem! Strider/Aragorn as the key to the story, not just the Ring! He is the connection to the depth of history, as Child has mentioned on the CbC discussion. That could be the reason why I can’t get used to Trotter, as Aragorn is just too important to me to replace him with someone else. I haven’t yet gotten to the point of being able to like Trotter as a different character. However, the idea of “wild hobbits” fascinates me! (I’ve finished reading Chapter IX, ‘Trotter and the Journey to Weathertop’.) What potential for a fan fiction there!

Estelyn Telcontar · 10-31-2004, 07:15 AM

I have now finished reading The Return of the Shadow and am embarking on The Treason of Isengard (HoME VI and VII, respectively). Since the first book goes back to recap the various versions of FotR, it doesn't get farther than Balin's tomb in Moria, which Tolkien mentions as a point where he tarried long before continuing. Though it is interesting to follow the progression the story makes, there hasn't been a whole lot on which to comment. Here are some of the random impressions I have so far:

Bingo has become Frodo by now - thankfully!! Could I, or any of you, for that matter, have taken LotR so seriously had the hero been named Bingo?

Sam has joined the hobbits, though his characterization is not yet clearly cut. (Ditto for the other hobbits - their comments and actions are often interchangeable, as their number, names and characterizations are not yet finalized.)

Trotter is still there, though there are indications that he is to be exchanged for a Man. Some dialogues and actions are interchangeable with Aragorn, but he is a different character. I have grown more accustomed to than fond of him, but in his background story as originally planned by Tolkien, he is a Boffin, which makes him a logical character to show up in my Folco Boffin fan fiction. The biggest eye opener about Trotter was the reason why he wears wooden shoes. I won't spoil that for anyone who hasn't read it yet, but I must say, I was shocked!

Since Aragorn is not yet there, there is also no Arwen...

And am I the only one who thinks that the early portrayal of Gandalf was considerably more irascible and short-tempered than that which made it into the final version?!

davem · 10-31-2004, 12:38 PM

Well, I haven't been reading HoME in the same way as you. I've been reading each version of the various chapters sequentially - which has meant reading both Return & Treason, & sometimes three or four versions of feach chapter, & then thee final version in LotR. Its been both confusing & enlightening. Mostly confusing though - which is why I haven't contributed to this thread. My few insights have gone into the main Chapter-by-chapter thread - & here I must apologise, because I have a hellishly long post for the Farewell to Lorien thread - which I can't see anyone reading all the way through! As well as HoME I've drawn on The Road Goes Ever On.

To respond to your points, though: Gandalf is certainly more irrascible, even occasionally nasty, Bingo/Frodo is developing into the character we know, but its obvious that, as Carpenter has said, Tolkien was writing blind, & often its clear that he had no idea, even into the third or fourth versions, of where he's going, or what kind of book he wants to end up with. Its clear, I feel, that he took a long time to find his feet, & much of the early stuff is clumsy. We do see a masterpiece forming before our eyes, & we can only be grateful to CT for what he's given us - we'll never have anything like HoME again.

Oddly, though, I still think we don't get a complete insight into Tolkien's genius, even with all this material. I read it, & still feel there must have been this incredible ferment going on in his subconcious. You can see his struggle to discover 'what really happened' & set it down. I'm reminded of Jung's writing of the 'Seven Sermons to the Dead', which apparently produced all kinds of psychic & synchronous events, till he set it down, & which he believed had not come from his own mind, but had been 'given' to him, that he had been chosen to communicate it. Clearly, Tolkien could not leave this story till it had been told.

Mithalwen · 10-31-2004, 01:04 PM

I have been rereading the return of the shadow as research for a RPG, I find it quite fascinating and heartily second Davem's thanks to CT. It is clear that his task was in it's way as daunting as the Ring Quest and that equally, he did not fully realise it's magnitude when he started. I have to admit I find his notes a source of joy - I imagine there were many moments of "severe initial confusion" and I howled with laughter at his recollection of the "Bingos" as demonic and appalling when the Carpenter bio gives a rather cutesy image of the family of toy koalas, which made the name Bingo even more horrific. I wonder how the story would have progressed of the main character had shared his namesake's "demonic character (composed of monomaniac religious despotism and a lust for destruction through high explosive)"?

08-27-2004, 09:11 PM	#1
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	What Child said Child, you put it so eloquently... Yes, Bingo and Trotter's story is different than Frodo and Strider. It's a different book. And I like it that way. It's almost like they are ancestors, or something. (Parallel Universe, anyone? ) __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

08-28-2004, 02:13 AM	#2
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Its different near the Shire And so it is, because with the appearance of Strider we are suddenly in a bigger, older world. If Tolkien had continued with his original idea we would have remained in the world of the Hobbit, Bombadil & Farmer Maggot. Aragorn changes the whole story. As Child says, he is the link to the Sil. This is fascinating for me. The appearance of a single character changes the whole story. It is no longer to be a children's book, it is no longer to be a fairy story, it even changes its purpose - no longer a sequel to the Hobbit, its now the culmination of the Silmarillion. Having said that, I like Trotter, & I can't help wondering what kind of adventures he'd have lead the hobbits on. Of course, one could speculate that as time passed. at least for hobbits in their rural isolation, the whole history of the end of the Third Age became a fairy story - Bilbo became 'Mad Baggins' who disappeared with a bang & returned with wagon loads of treasure, Sam chased black men up mountains & Aragorn became a mysterious hobbit who wore wooden shoes. Its almost like Tolkien first 'discovered' this version, & then slowly worked backwards to discover 'what really happened'. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

09-03-2004, 04:14 AM	#3
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	What an interesting thought, davem! Strider/Aragorn as the key to the story, not just the Ring! He is the connection to the depth of history, as Child has mentioned on the CbC discussion. That could be the reason why I can’t get used to Trotter, as Aragorn is just too important to me to replace him with someone else. I haven’t yet gotten to the point of being able to like Trotter as a different character. However, the idea of “wild hobbits” fascinates me! (I’ve finished reading Chapter IX, ‘Trotter and the Journey to Weathertop’.) What potential for a fan fiction there! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

10-31-2004, 07:15 AM	#4
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I have now finished reading The Return of the Shadow and am embarking on The Treason of Isengard (HoME VI and VII, respectively). Since the first book goes back to recap the various versions of FotR, it doesn't get farther than Balin's tomb in Moria, which Tolkien mentions as a point where he tarried long before continuing. Though it is interesting to follow the progression the story makes, there hasn't been a whole lot on which to comment. Here are some of the random impressions I have so far: Bingo has become Frodo by now - thankfully!! Could I, or any of you, for that matter, have taken LotR so seriously had the hero been named Bingo? Sam has joined the hobbits, though his characterization is not yet clearly cut. (Ditto for the other hobbits - their comments and actions are often interchangeable, as their number, names and characterizations are not yet finalized.) Trotter is still there, though there are indications that he is to be exchanged for a Man. Some dialogues and actions are interchangeable with Aragorn, but he is a different character. I have grown more accustomed to than fond of him, but in his background story as originally planned by Tolkien, he is a Boffin, which makes him a logical character to show up in my Folco Boffin fan fiction. The biggest eye opener about Trotter was the reason why he wears wooden shoes. I won't spoil that for anyone who hasn't read it yet, but I must say, I was shocked! Since Aragorn is not yet there, there is also no Arwen... And am I the only one who thinks that the early portrayal of Gandalf was considerably more irascible and short-tempered than that which made it into the final version?! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

10-31-2004, 12:38 PM	#5
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Well, I haven't been reading HoME in the same way as you. I've been reading each version of the various chapters sequentially - which has meant reading both Return & Treason, & sometimes three or four versions of feach chapter, & then thee final version in LotR. Its been both confusing & enlightening. Mostly confusing though - which is why I haven't contributed to this thread. My few insights have gone into the main Chapter-by-chapter thread - & here I must apologise, because I have a hellishly long post for the Farewell to Lorien thread - which I can't see anyone reading all the way through! As well as HoME I've drawn on The Road Goes Ever On. To respond to your points, though: Gandalf is certainly more irrascible, even occasionally nasty, Bingo/Frodo is developing into the character we know, but its obvious that, as Carpenter has said, Tolkien was writing blind, & often its clear that he had no idea, even into the third or fourth versions, of where he's going, or what kind of book he wants to end up with. Its clear, I feel, that he took a long time to find his feet, & much of the early stuff is clumsy. We do see a masterpiece forming before our eyes, & we can only be grateful to CT for what he's given us - we'll never have anything like HoME again. Oddly, though, I still think we don't get a complete insight into Tolkien's genius, even with all this material. I read it, & still feel there must have been this incredible ferment going on in his subconcious. You can see his struggle to discover 'what really happened' & set it down. I'm reminded of Jung's writing of the 'Seven Sermons to the Dead', which apparently produced all kinds of psychic & synchronous events, till he set it down, & which he believed had not come from his own mind, but had been 'given' to him, that he had been chosen to communicate it. Clearly, Tolkien could not leave this story till it had been told. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

10-31-2004, 01:04 PM	#6
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	I have been rereading the return of the shadow as research for a RPG, I find it quite fascinating and heartily second Davem's thanks to CT. It is clear that his task was in it's way as daunting as the Ring Quest and that equally, he did not fully realise it's magnitude when he started. I have to admit I find his notes a source of joy - I imagine there were many moments of "severe initial confusion" and I howled with laughter at his recollection of the "Bingos" as demonic and appalling when the Carpenter bio gives a rather cutesy image of the family of toy koalas, which made the name Bingo even more horrific. I wonder how the story would have progressed of the main character had shared his namesake's "demonic character (composed of monomaniac religious despotism and a lust for destruction through high explosive)"? __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

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