LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 12 - Flight to the Ford

[Boromir88]

Well put Fordhim I don't see how I can expand upon your points, for I think you covered it well. I will say about the whole "treasury came from robbers." It reminds me of a movie (that I can't really think of right now it might be Once upon a Time in the West), but it's where the person couldn't except "blood money" or "tainted money." Blood money, meaning that money that came from someone getting killed, or other illegal ways. In Bilbo's case this happens to be "tainted treasure" in which case he might not be able to live with that anymore and gives it up to Frodo. Which, as you say is a clue to the ending, Frodo we first see give up all that wealth of Bag End to his more hated relatives the Sackville-Bagginses, and then getting the ring to Mount Doom creating in oppurtunity for Frodo to be completely free of this "tainted treasure."

Also, here is a very pivotal part of the Book, the Wraiths are assailing Weathertop, so the Ring either stays in the hands of Frodo, or gets into the hands of Sauron's servants and ending all hope of destruction. Here we get to see the wraiths again failing to accomplish their mission, who knows why, maybe its because they aren't in possession of their 9 rings and aren't as powerful without them.

Aiwendil said:

But is there a similar after-climax here in book I or is this particular structure one he only used for the true climax?

I wouldn't say so, because this "defeat of the wraiths" is only a temporary set back, and is still very unlikely the "quest" will succeed. I think to be able to say there is this "after-climax" in Book 1, you would have to find a solution to the "true climax," and that didn't happen. There was a temporary solution to this small, pivotal, story but in the end it didn't solve the "true climax" of the story.

[Mithalwen]

One thing that I have wondered for a while is that is if Aragorn's power in healing changes as the book progresses. When Frodo is injured, Aragorn's power is not enough. Is this just because Aragorn did not have the instrument necessary to remove the splinter in the wild? Or is it an extension of the idea of King as healer and that is only when Aragorn has effectively if not technically become king that he obtains his full power? I realise that the splinter was probably a major factor but the idea of a king having special healing powers was around for a long time in English history at least with Scrofula so I wonder how much was due to the actual kingship rather than the lineage.

The Black Breath also seems to have varied in its strength; Merry is relatively unscathed at Bree, here it is hard to tell how much Frodo is affected because of the physical injury, but it doesn't seem to be such a factor as it was for Eowyn and Merry at the Pelennor ( possible factors might be the greater power of the Witch King, proximity to Mordor, closer proximity to the Nazgul ie attacking him).

Another thing that I have puzzled over may have have its answers in some of the earlier discussion about the "other dimension" experienced by the wraiths and Glorfindel. It is that when Glorfindel touches Frodo's wound and he feels some comfort. Now I had wondered whether this was merely an elvish quirk or something more specific relating to Glorfindel as a powerful elf lord. Now I see it could be a more direct counteracting of the dark power by the light.

Finally on the subject of light: it hadn't really occured that Glorfindel revealed in his power might be something only Frodo might have seen. Gildor's company had a light about them if I remember correctly and I just assumed that making a mighty elf lord angry was just like increasing the wattage! But if it was something that only Frodo saw then it might tie into Gandalf's thoughts about Frodo in the next chapter, that he would become like a vessel of white light for those with the eyes to see it. I may be getting carried away here, but it seems to me that in a sense, this is Frodo's death. He has sustained an injury that will prevent him returning to his old life. He has crossed from the physical to the spiritual zone and although they leave their mark, none of the further injuries he will suffer kill him. There is the possible symbolism of the ford of Bruinen as either "crossing the river" in to death or as a kind of baptism into a new spiritual life. It may be far fetched but two other figures who are seen as vessels of white light are reborn - Glorfindel and Gandalf.

To return to solid ground from speculation, I would say that I love the way that this chapter "tidies in" Gildor. I used to think that it was a bit callous of him to abandon Frodo although I suppose he may have expected Gandalf to be at Bree and may have"tipped off" the rangers too so it is nice to know that he got messages back to rivendell (I am still digesting "osane kenta" sp? - I had wondered about elvish telepathy beforebut thought that the elves could possibly have got back to Rivendell that much more quickly).

[davem]

Fordim makes some important points (as usual). Its too easy to forget that Frodo is a hobbit from a non-violent culture (no hobbit of the Shire had ever killed another deliberately) who has never encountered physical violence in any form (unless we count Old Man Willow, but that was very ‘dreamlike). There have been warnings, & his room at the Prancing Pony had been ravaged, but now someone, something, had tried to kill him, & the wound he recieved was not even a normal stab wound, but one that could slowly kill him. Clearly he begins to suffer from post traumatic stress, which grows throughout this chapter. Beings are trying to kill him, simply because of the burden he carries. What we see are his attempts to make sense of it, blaming others, himself, circumstances.

What is clear is that he is the kind of person who will turn on himself & blame himself for circumstances outside his control, & we can see a foreshadowing of how he will end up. He makes himself into both a victim of circumstances & at the same time he sees himself as culpable - he has brought things on himself, its all his fault. He failed to act properly. We may feel at the end of the book almost like shaking Frodo & telling him not to blame himself, it wasn't his fault that he succumed to the power of the Ring, & he should forgive himself, but it seems even now that he's not capable of that - as far as he's concerned the terrrible things that happen to him are somehow 'deserved', he brings them on himself through his weakness & foolishness. How many times throughout his journey will he do this?

He also has a tendency to blame himself for the failures of others, as if he's taking their 'sins' onto himself. At the end he can ask Sam to forgive Gollum, even forgive Gollum himself, but he can't forgive himself for the choice Gollum made, & can't bring himself to ask forgiveness for himself, because he seems to feel he's not worthy of it. The Shire has been saved - but not for him, because he doesn't deserve it. Whether we see Tolkien himself, the survivor of the Somme battle that took the lives of two out of his three closest friends is another mattter, but all along what we see in Frodo is 'survivor guilt'. One wonders if he even feels pity for the Ring-wraiths, seeing them as not responsible for their actions, being slaves of the Ring.

Why can't he accept that other's make free choices, & are responsible for their actions, when he sees himself as responsible for everything he himself does? Its like he wants to save everyone else, but can't bring himself to see himself as worthy of being saved himself. He refuses to ride off on Asfaloth, because that would be to 'desert' his friends, its only when Glorfindel points out that if he stayed he'd put them in greater danger than if he goes, that he rides off. Later he won't even let Aragorn look at his wound after the orc stabs him in Moria, because he doesn't want any 'fuss' made.

But has he always been that way, or is it some effect of the Ring on him, some isolating effect? Does it show some perverted sense of being in control, being the one who is responsible for everything?

Mithalwen’s point about crossing the river symbolising death seem important - with each subsequent river crossing Frodo seems to move further & further ‘inward’, towards the source of the ‘magical’ core of Middle earth (as opposed to the ‘mystical’ core) Orodruin, the place where the magic came into being, the place that draws the ringbearers.
(Random thoughts...)

[Boromir88]

Davem wrote:

But has he always been that way, or is it some effect of the Ring on him, some isolating effect? Does it show some perverted sense of being in control, being the one who is responsible for everything?

I think to answer that question you got to compare Frodo's actions to the "actions" (if you want to call them that) of the Ring. You've already said how Frodo wants to blame himself for everything, and thinks he's responsible for everything, which is a valid point. Then we have...

perverted sense of being in control

Isn't that also a "characteristic" of the Ring itself, being in control, it control's what people think, it controls how people act, it even controls the whole fate of Middle-Earth. So it could be some sort of an effect the Ring is having on Frodo. But also, you can think of it as, maybe it takes one like Frodo to be able to wield and use the ring like he did. Maybe, it takes someone, like a Frodo, one that wants to take responsibility for everything. To answer this, we got to look at the two people who actually carried the Ring as a burden to Mount Doom. Frodo and Isildur. We've already established Frodo as that "it's all my fault," and as you put it, a form of "perverted control. So now we ask was Isildur like Frodo? Was Isildur that type of person, who blamed himself for everyone's mistakes? Unfortunately, I don't know enough on Isildur to make a judgement, so I obviously can't go any further.

[Lalwendë]

Clearly he begins to suffer from post traumatic stress

Davem - this is something I really agree with. After I was diagnosed with PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) myself I viewed Frodo's sufferings in a whole new light. One of the aspects most clearly demonstrated is his pain on the anniversary of the attack, an anguish which cannot be cured, and which Frodo is unable to cope with. There is also Frodo's inability to accept the truth of what happened, that he was attacked and was not responsible; there was nothing he could do about an unexpected stabbing. He also acts out of character at stressful times - the best example being his refusal to give up the ring at Mount Doom.

Frodo's first reaction, that he may be maimed for life, rings a bell with me - it is the immediate sense of fear and regret. He then has nightmares, and imagines that Aragorn is one of the ringwaraiths; he is seeing the potential for trauma in other, harmless things. After his physical recovery, the trauma still remains to be brought to the surface under stressful circumstances, in situations which remind him of the attack, and on anniversaries.

As davem says, hobbits are not a warlike people and would never expect to be injured by a sword in an unprovoked attack, so this life event naturally takes a devastating toll on Frodo. Although I don't think PTSD was recognised until relatively recently (correct me if I am wrong), it is said that the widespread shell-shock of WWI was basically PTSD, and I don't doubt that seeing the effect that this had was translated into Tolkien's own writing when he wished to decribe the effects of the attack on Frodo.

[davem]

Anyone interested in an analysis of Frodo's experience of PTSD/survivor guilt might want to read Karen Milos' essay 'Too Deeply Hurt:Understanding Frodo's Decision to Depart:
http://www.geocities.com/karynmilos/toodeeplyhurt.html

[Lalwendë]

That is an excellent article, davem. It confirms what I had been thinking about Frodo's suffering. What interests me is that at the end he feels he must sail to the Undying Lands, this is his only hope of recovery, yet away from ME there are no Undying Lands and we must seek our own recovery in other ways, one of which may be seeking solace in LOTR itself. Frodo finds no recovery that we can see (he may find this in the West, but we don't know this), and this is one of the saddest elements of the story, that we do not know if Frodo achieved 'closure' as the counsellors call it.

In the article it raised the poisonous words of Saruman who tells Frodo that there will be no rest for him - is this Saruman's wisdom or Saruman displaying the lack of understanding which sufferers experience from other people?

I was also thinking about the Black Breath and whether this might be an emblem or symbol for depression. Certainly, I have heard people talk of depressive episodes as 'black moods' or 'black holes', and wondered if the Ringwaraiths' infliction of 'Black Breath' on others could be a symbol of people inflicting sorrow or heartache upon other people?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Davem, Lalwende and all....

As a point of information, and to suggest other viewpoints on this essay.....there were two earlier threads on the Downs where this article was briefly discussed:

Here.

Also here...

The link to the original article is broken, since it has moved to a new address, but this was definitely the essay under consideration. My own feelings, then and now, are more mixed than yours. I feel the author has done valuable work in pointing to the clear evidence that some of Frodo's feelings and actions can be better explained if we view these in terms of post traumatic stress disorder (and I would say survivor guilt as well). Moreover, what we've learned from Garth's book reinforces the possibility that Tolkien's World War I experiences and feelings crept into his depiction of Frodo.

However, I am not willing to go as far as the essay suggests. I can't help but feel that she essentially portrays PTSD as the sole factor, a wholly negative one, in Frodo's decision to leave the Shire. This is too simplistic. All through the book, Tolkien delineated two sides of Frodo's persona: the "shadowed" side, which was growing under the influence of the Ring, but also the side inclined to good, that which led to mercy, his deepening relationship with Sam, and, most critically, the drive towards inner Elvish things (what we might term 'spirituality' or faerie depending on how we define things). The latter elements did not simply vanish with the failure at Sammath Naur. They may have been submerged under guilt and pain, but they still remained part of Frodo and, as such, had to play some role in his decision to leave the Shire. There was an element of longing in Frodo, longing for the Sea and what lay beyond, that not even the slopes of Mordor could totally erase. And this essay does not address or acknowledge this possibilty.

*****************

I would voice similar caution when looking at this chapter. Davem - I think it's a gem of insight to view this chapter as a foretaste or modelling of what is to come at the end of the book. And part of what comes about is Frodo's inability to accept his limitations, instead focusing exclusively on how he has failed, according himself an importance no mortal should take on. In addition to what you've cited, I would add martyr complex to that list!

Yet, having said that, I think we are in danger (like the author of the essay) in reducing Frodo to an equation, one in which we've left out essential parts. For example, you raised this question:

But has he always been that way, or is it some effect of the Ring on him, some isolating effect? Does it show some perverted sense of being in control, being the one who is responsible for everything?

By implication, this raises a different question. It was Gandalf who chose Frodo and he stated many times in both LotR and UT that Frodo was the "best" the Shire had to offer. Even in this chapter, Aragorn states:

Your Frodo is made of sterner stuff than I had guessed, though Gandalf hinted that it might prove so.

If Frodo had "always been that way" with some "perverted sense of being in control", then Gandalf was incorrect in his initial assessment of the Hobbit. And if we look at the "pregnant passive" that is used in connection with Frodo's choosing and accept it at face value, we would also have to say that Eru or Manwe or whoever did the choosing would also have been wrong in guiding the Ring into the hands of Bilbo and eventually to Frodo.

I don't think so. I would rather accept the author's statement, as given through Gandalf's mouth: he describes Frodo as the 'finest' Hobbit in the Shire. In one Letter, JRRT also says that these particular Hobbits (including Frodo) were "extraordinarily gifted". By these terms, whatever is happening to Frodo is the effect of the Ring, rather than a prior condition.

Admittedly, the Ring has a different impact on each individual: Frodo does not turn power hungry or end up killing someone in the way that Smeagol did. Those are not his potential shortcomings: they are instead the ones you list. The potential for his particular kind of corruption was always there in Frodo (in the same way that human limitations exist in all of us), but it is only with the Ring that we actually see it coming out and influencing his thoughts and behavior.

My own reading of the chapter is somewhat different: The Ring is working on Frodo and you have pointed to instances where the Hobbit exhibits self doubt, something that will occur more than once. Yet, this is only a single piece of the puzzle. In this chapter, Tolkien continually stresses that it is a miracle Frodo even survived such a wound. It is the heaviness of the burden that is emphasized as much as Frodo's limitations. If Frodo had already been so heavily under the influence of PTSD or the Ring that it dominated his every inner thought, he would never have managed to get to Mount Doom. The doubt and self incrimination is there, but it must be read in the context of his whole personality and actions and the dire situation he was in.

Strangely enough, my hesitations with the essay and even with stressing the inner self doubt of the chapter are similar to the way I feel about Peter Jackson's Frodo. Others on this thread have pointed out how Jackson changed the depiction of Frodo at Weathertop with sad results, but I think it is wider than that. In the movie, Frodo is portrayed almost from the start as a victim. The dilemma with Frodo is to keep the two sides in balance: victim he was, and with grave limitations and self doubt, but also an extraordinary Hobbit, likely the only one in Middle-earth who could have done what he did. It is the challenge of balancing these images that makes any interpretation of Frodo challengingly complex.