‘Canonicity’: the Book or the Reader?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

Its about understanding what another human being has to say to you, not about your opinion of what he's saying. And how can you even have an opinion of what he's saying if you don't listen as objectively as you can? What I bring to reading Tolkien's works has little or no value, (imo) in comparison to what Tolkien has to teach me.

Applied to the text written and published by the author, I do not disagree with you. Applied to anything beyond the text, I couldn't disagree with you more. An author has no guarantee that readers will actually like his story. From those that do, he cannot expect more than a tiny minority to delve any further than the text. For the vast majority of readers it is impractical for them, or simply of no interest to them, to do so.

I am not saying that they are right and you are wrong, just as I do not believe that you are right and they are wrong. Each is (within the boundaries that we have discussed earlier) an equally valid response to the author's work. Certainly, I cannot imagine that you are saying that we should all respond to art in the same way or approach it according to a specific set of guidelines.

[davem]

SpM I'm saying, as far as possible we must empty our minds, listen to that author as carefully as possible, take in what he/she has to say to the best of our ability, understand as far as we can theirwhole message, what they want to communicate to us, & then make a judgement on it, 'infect' it with our own baggage, etc. We must begin from a position that the author is smarter than we are & has something important to teach us (& whether you, or Aiwendil or Bethberry realise it, that's the position I adopt in regard to your posts on this thread )

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

SpM I'm saying, as far as possible we must empty our minds, listen to that author as carefully as possible, take in what he/she has to say to the best of our ability, understand as far as we can theirwhole message, what they want to communicate to us, & then make a judgement on it, 'infect' it with our own baggage, etc.

Why must we? Are you talking about everyone who reads LotR, those who are interested in delving further than the text, or just those who are interested in having this discourse with the author?

Originally Posted by davem

(& whether you, or Aiwendil or Bethberry realise it, that's the position I adopt in regard to your posts on this thread )

But you are primarily, if not solely, relying on the text of what we have posted.

[davem]

Originally Posted by SpM

Why must we? Are you talking about everyone who reads LotR, those who are interested in delving further than the text, or just those who are interested in having this discourse with the author?

Ok, we must if we wish to understand what the author meant.

But you are primarily, if not solely, relying on the text of what we have posted.

Which is as much as I have, but I don't pretend you don't exist, & that the texts pop onto the screen of themselves - I take them as 'expressions of your minds', things that you are communicating to me. The 'texts' are the way we communicate, as much as things in themselves. 'Living shapes that move from mind to mind', & all that.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

Ok, we must if we wish to understand what the author meant.

Can't disagree with that. But you seem to be suggesting that we are in some way obligated to try to understand what the author meant, or at least that it is desirable for us to do so. It's there that I think we disagree, since I would hold that it is a perfectly valid response for the reader, if they so wish, to stop at the text and go no further.

[Aiwendil]

What Are We Arguing About?

As I said before, I've been experiencing a growing uncertainty about just what disagreement we actually have in this debate. Initially it was a matter of "canon". Is the canon determined by the author or the reader or the text itself? But this question could not be directly addressed, as there was disagreement over the meaning of "canon" - the question, interesting though it was, was not well formulated.

So there ensued some debate about the term "canon" - debate which seems ultimately futile, since "canon" is just a term and its definition arbitrary.

And here we are on page 12 and as far as I can see we still haven't succeeded at formulating the question.

Is there a fundamental factual disagreement? I don't think so. We all agree that the author had a mind, even those in the "reader's freedom" camp. And likewise we all agree that readers have different ways of understanding the text and different reasons for reading it - even those in the "author's authority" camp cannot dispute that as a mere fact.

So if we do not disagree on the facts, what do we disagree about?

It must be a matter of worth or value that is in dispute. There is the claim that it is primarily or exclusively "worthwhile" to study the author. Then there is the claim that each reader's view has equal "value". And there is the claim that it is the text itself that is "valuable".

I can see no way of recasting those different claims without using words like "worth" or "value".

But what kind of worth are we talking about? Monetary worth? Obviously not. Moral worth? I don't think that's it either, though perhaps I'm wrong. I doubt that Davem would say (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that a reader who disregards Tolkien as a person is actually doing something morally bad.

If not these, then what? We might say "artistic worth" but this is a cheat - it's just the replacement of one ambiguous term with another.

The truth, I think, is that we're each talking about a different kind of worth - and because we all simply say "worth" this gets us into arguments. Each of us has some different goal in mind with respect to which we measure the value of the author, the text, and the reader.

When Davem says that the author's views are the most worthwhile, he means this with respect to the goal of understanding the author and the author's intention. I don't disagree with this. If one's purpose in studying a piece of art is to study it as a manifestation of the author, then surely one of the most valuable things one can do is to study the author.

But if one's goal is something different - say, "mere" enjoyment, then the value of studying the author will not be the same. To someone like me who is interested in studying the text itself - as a text, rather than as a manifestation of or message from the author - it is less valuable (though still valuable) to study the author.

I think the nature of the "disagreement" is exemplified by what Davem wrote in the previous post:

Ok, we must if we wish to understand what the author meant.

This is exactly the point. If we wish to understand what the author meant, then studying the author is important. But that's not what we all wish.

I think that the whole disagreement about how to define the term "canon" arises merely from the fact that we each have a different objective in mind. If your objective is that of the authorial manifestation, then naturally you'll want to define "canon" in terms of authorial intentions, since that's the concept that's of interest to you. If your objective is to study the texts themselves, you might rather define "canon" purely in terms of the texts. There's no "correct" definition - it's merely a matter of different conventions.

That leaves us with the question of whether one objective is "better" than the others. And I'm afraid I can't see any way of arguing this for any of them - why should it be intrinsically "better" to study one thing than to study another?

Edit: Cross-post with The Saucepan Man, who has essentially said exactly the same thing I did but in about a tenth as many words. I think I'll go practice tempering my verbosity.

[davem]

Aiwendil's points are well made - as per - but unfortunately kill this whole thread dead

This has been one of my favourite ever threads, because we've been arguing over something that, lets be honest, doesn't actually matter a damn. But we've been forced to construct & defend positions against the most determined opposition - in my case against some of the smartest people on these boards, & I think we've learned a lot about each other in the process.

We've also, I think, learned a lot about the nature of art & what it means to different people.

I still hold to the view that all art is a 'conversation' between two individual, 'living' minds - because the art was the product of a living mind when it came into being, & feel that this is an idea Tolkien gave a lot of weight to - both the Lost Road & Notion Club Papers are about this very thing - individuals alive at one point in time communicating with other individuals in 'their' past or future. The idea of a work of art as a a 'static', fixed thing, set down without any intentional meaning (or any intentional meaning which we should take into account) seems strange to me, & I can't understand it, or relate to it in any way. The Art for me is a 'packet' of meaning - deliberate & intentional, an attempt by the artist to communicate across time & space. Tolkien, as I said, is both the creator of Middle earth, & a character within it - the last of the Elf-friends, the final link in the chain connecting us to Faerie, & that chain is a 'living process' because its links are (within the secondary world) living minds.

Does everyone accept that? That 'Tolkien' is a character within his Legendarium, as much as Eriol/Aelfwine, that he has written himself into the story? Can we discuss the 'character' of the 'translator' Tolkien & the part he plays in the story? And is this Translator Tolkien the same as or different from the Oxford Professor? Yet did Tolkien himself think of himself as both creator & creation? And if he did, how many experiences did they share? Translator Tolkien owned a copy of the Red Book, which Professor Tolkien didn't (?).

The point of that speculation is simply to show that Tolkien didn't see himself as being entirely 'outside' the Legendarium, so how can we?

[HerenIstarion]

Aiwendil's points are well made - as per - but unfortunately kill this whole thread dead

I suppose we can revive it at later point.

This has been one of my favourite ever threads, because we've been arguing over something that, lets be honest, doesn't actually matter a damn. But we've been forced to construct & defend positions against the most determined opposition - in my case against some of the smartest people on these boards, & I think we've learned a lot about each other in the process.

Can't help agreeing . Same the reason for revival at some later point.

davem, if you ever show up in the Know Yer Mates, or a Member Above Ye (shameless advertising, I know) thread, make sure I'm online so I can post after you. The approximate description will be:

...davem is yet unbeaten in debate. Even if opponents would not agree and would not be persuaded, they flee his persistence in defence of his position in most prolix discourses the Internet Era may yet boast of...

But, if seriously, I must thank you and Fordim, for you two act like catalysts for the rest of us, making us think, write and debate after all years of 'being around', thus refuting malisious gossips that there is not much left, honestly . Special thanks to Aiwendil, the brilliant performer of the 'cold shower' role, which is of vivid importance, since we could talk each other to death in our 'debate heat' but for his posts, full of common sense and logic.

yours truly,