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#1 | ||
Dread Horseman
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,744
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As to your comments regarding Rosie, well, I'll chalk them up to your self-admitted snappiness. Suffice to say that I hope you aren't suggesting that her role as wife and mother at large is somehow dishonorable or shameful. Lastly, perhaps you ought to at least toss out the number of the letter you reference so that interested parties can get some context, instead of just dropping veiled suggestions that Tolkien was a raging mysogynist. Who knows? Maybe the prof had lemon with his tea when he was composing that day. |
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#2 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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I was thinking about how Tolkien created his female characters and came up with a couple of thoughts on how they might be viewed.
Idealised Femininity Many of the women in Tolkien are portrayed as figures to be idolised by men. Arwen is the epitome of the 'princess' figure, to be 'won' by Aragorn. He must prove his worth by great deeds, prove to her father that he is worthy, and she will not be given to anyone less than a king, or she will be 'shut away' forever in Valinor, beyond the reach of ordinary men. Galadriel is a powerful queenly figure, beautiful, noble and also terrifying to men; only those who are essentially 'good' are not blinded by this power and beauty. Eowyn is a fatherless daughter, a tragic figure who wins nobility and is rewarded with the love of a man who has gone through troubles like herself. Even Rosie is idealised, by Sam who eventually 'wins' her hand and provides her with an enormous family, a dynasty of Gamgees. Thinking of the women in this way reminds me of the pre-raphaelite painters who portrayed women as beautiful, aspirational figures. They are somewhat 'removed' from the struggles of ordinary mortals. This in turn leads to the medieval courtly view of femininity, which is something which Tolkien could quite easily have been inspired by. He may have seen that in a world of heroes, the women must match up to this ideal. Female Symbols I often think of significant female figures or archetypes in history or myth when I read about women in ME. Ioreth is very much like one of the medicine women of ancient cultures, she is derided as relying upon old wives' tales, yet is an effective healer and a valuable part of Minas Tirith society. Eowyn, looked at from this respect, could be viewed as Boudicca, going to war out of sheer despair, and interestingly, there are goddesses of war in Celtic legend, and tales of shield maidens. Galadriel in this line of thought could be viewed as a priestess, able to see visions due to her immense power and insight, and also a bestower of magical gifts. Shelob is symbolic of the 'hag', Rosie as the 'mother' and Arwen of the 'maiden'. |
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#3 | |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
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#4 | ||||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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You are very right, Mr. Underhill, that Eowyn's
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One of the most eloquent and beautiful chapters of LotR is, to me at least, "The Stewart and the King", in no small measure because of the lyricism with which Tolkien treats Faramir and Eowyn. I grant all that and I am moved immeasurably by it. The artistic vision whick Tolkien uses to symbolise the healing of Rohan through the figure of Eowyn is brilliant in terms of unity, economy, proportion and (I add in edit) even the daring to use a female character for its warrior status--perhaps even hinting at something here which Estelyn has suggsested on her thread, Females--Misssing in Action. (end of edit here). The healing of Eowyn is the healing of Rohan, released from the long dark seige of the Shadow. This is at once a brilliant stroke and (again to me) a disappointment. Although we already know the outcome of the quest, we know that Frodo succeeds in bringing the Ring to its destruction, the time frame is repeated. The passage bears quoting. Quote:
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It will seem curmudgeonly of me to step back and ponder this structure, but I nontheless will. As beautiful as the symmetry is I have to ask myself why Tolkien choose to use the most "modern" female character to represent this very positive move from warrior society to peacful endeavour. The healing metaphor is powerful and perfect for the ending of the warlike nature of Rohan, but to portray the women who wanted more than domestic acitivity as needing to be healed of her desire, as if it were a disease, ultimately disappoints me. Even granting that the males turn now to peaceful acitivity. But they get to do things, have activities outside the home. They still have a life and purpose beyond the threshold of the home. But Eowyn, in wanting this "more", this life of exertion and activity and intellectual endeavour, must be healed of it. I have to ask myself why Tolkien choose that particular female character to function in that particular way. Tolkien was, as far as I can tell from his letters and the breadth and generosity of his vision, a very thoughtful, gracious, generous man. He was not cruel nor in any way bullying. Far from it. But he was a man of his generation and his faith. When I read the Catholic Encyclopedia from 1910/1911, under the entry "Woman" I find statements to the effect that women do not need to be educated, for the sphere to which they are called does not require it. The station to which women are called is honourable, but it is a domestic station. So I turn to, Mr. Underhill, to Letter # 43, which Tolkien wrote to his son Michael 6-8 March 1941. It is a very frank letter offering advice about marriage and the relation of the sexes from a father to a son. I doubt it was written with any dispeptic mood. Yet his concept of female sexuality--using the term "uncorrupted"--and his reading of his female students are thoroughly of his time and place. Quote:
Lalwendë, your point about the similarity to the pre-Raphaelites is very good! Some of Tolkien's drawings remind me very much of the Art Nouveau develpments of the Pre-Raphealite art. Mr. Hedgethistle, I have forsworn my tea and lemon today in favour of lighter refreshment. No doubt there are typos here and turns of phrasing which I would change but I have no time now to revise. I shall return to reread this. (Edit: I have corrected coding typos and changed some phrasing, before I read the posts which have now been made after mind.)
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 09-12-2004 at 02:11 AM. |
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#5 | |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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Bethberry - I'm going to address the question of Rose and Sam, which you've raised in the quote above. While this is not the specific example of Eowyn which was the orginal center of the discussion, it ties in very closely. And you do indicate that you see a connection between Eowyn's ending and that of Rose, and that you are not comfortable with either image. Regarding the quote that appears above....."abomination" is a very strong word, and I find I can not agree with it. I know you have mentioned your dislike of the example of Rosie and Sam and their large family on previous threads, but have never discussed this as explicitly as here. I wouldn't have had a problem if you had simply indicated you personally would not care to do things the way Rosie did. But your statement seems a good deal stronger and more wide reaching than that. My problem comes when I feel you are putting forward a general judgment that you regard as preferable in all situations and for all women. If that is the case, and I've not misread you, I feel that you are "limiting" women in a way that's not too different from those who would make blanket pronouncements that women should or should not do certain things, or take up certain occupations. If I've misread this, please clarify. On a personal level, I live in a community where, by choice, people have large families. (There is no prohibition against birth control so that isn't a factor.) While I don't know anyone with thirteen offspring, families with five to eight children are not unusual, and that is definitely above society's norm. Many of these offspring are biological; some of the families include adopted children as well; a number of the latter have special needs. I know many of these women intimately and have some idea about their motivations for bearing and/or raising larger numbers of children than is typical. In every case, it is their own choice, not something forced upon them from outside. Some of them come from large families themselves and remember with happiness the experience of growing up in such a warm, bustling environment. Interestingly, some of these families are more aware of the need to conserve and use the earth carefully than my own two offspring who are frankly more catered to and less used to the idea of "sharing", recyling clothes, or doing without. For the most part, these mothers are very aware that in today's politically correct world people automatically look askance at large families. They deal gracefully with the comments and gibes. While some of them are so-called "stay-at-home moms" (a term I personally dislike), a surprising number are physicians, dentists, and teachers. Yet, whatever their professional accomplishments, their children are their pride and joy. So, even in terms of the moden world, I think we need to be very careful about making assumptions about why a woman would choose to have a large family and what that means in terms of her identity and degree of independence. However, we are talking about Middle-earth, not 21st century U.S. or Canada. And the world Tolkien postulates is very different than our own. First, there is no question of overpopulation. There are vast lands in Middle-earth which used to contain a higher population, but where no one lives now. The danger in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age seemed to be that of not enough people rather than too many. Ents, elves and dwarves were all seemingly headed for virtual or actual extinction because of the lack of fruitful unions. That meant it was up to the Hobbits and Men to get things rolling again. Just as at the end of World War II, after a long period of depression and war when people had to put off many things in their personal life, there was a surge in marriages and childbearing. Moreover, Middle-earth is an agrarian/non technological society seemingly set at some point in the past. And although it's been said many times before, children were a blessing and a boon in such a situation to a degree that we can not imagine today. They were able to help in the fields, to do the vital chores inside the house, and to provide for the parents in their old age. We expect the state and the labor market to fill these roles today. In years longpast, this was done by the extended household. It is also true that the book depicts ways of thinking, acting and customs that make more sense in the context of Middle-earth than they would in our own world today. As much as I love Frodo and Sam, I would not recommend that we try and duplicate the class structure and attitudes that governed their relations. Nor do I feel that Tolkien was suggesting we do that. In the same way, while Sam and Rose's production of thirteen children was meant to make a point in the context of the early Fourth Age, it was not intended to serve as a model for our own behavior or even to be an indication of how the author regarded the modern women. I do not doubt that Tolkien's attitudes were more "old-fashioned" than yours or mine (ours too will look old fashioned when compared with those who come after us!), yet he was not unbending or inflexible. His admiration for his maiden aunt , the one who went on many extraordinary adventures including mountain climbling and in no way seemed conventional, appears to have been heartfelt. In short, especially as an historian, I am leery about reading our own modern customs and politial preferences back into Middle-earth. We could do a similar negative critique of class relations or the type of governments that are presented in the book. This is perhaps an instance of the kind of differences of opinion that surfaced on the canon thread. My preference here is to take the author at face value, to accept his depiction of the Gamgee couple with large family as a happy and desirable conclusion, even though my own personal experience in modern America has been very different. Please excuse me if I have tread on any toes inadvertently since I know you have strong feelings about this.
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 09-12-2004 at 07:22 AM. |
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#6 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Of course, as Child points out, Middle earth is not this world - there are very few alternatives available - basically find yourself a job healing or slaying. But as Leslie A Donovan points out in her essay, The Valkyrie reflex in the Lord of the Rings: Quote:
In short, Eowyn cannot, as far as I can see, be considered a 'modern' character, because Middle earth is not a 'modern' world. Feminism would be simply anachronistic & unconvincing. Maybe Tolkien did have some subtle 'political' point to make about 'moderns', but that doesn't come through for me in my reading of the book, because I can't think of any better result for Eowyn than what she gets. |
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#7 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Child,
Waking up and thinking through my post, that I had not mentioned the magical number 13 as I had previously, I came back and edited before I saw your post. "Abdomination" I removed because I had wished to add my thoughts about the special nature of the number. I had mentioned I would return to check phrasings. And now I see you have responded. Well. Serves me right for not having the time to edit. However... Quote:
There is a way of discussing art forms which asks about "point of entry." This is the 'place' or 'focus' which draws the audience in. For many of us with LotR, that is the delightful depiction of the hobbits in the early chapters. For others, it might be the thrill of Tolkien's very skilful use of tension with the introduction of the Dark Riders. With others, maybe it is the elves or Strider's enigmatic figure. What is not much discussed are "points of exit", where the art somehow fails to maintain its imaginative power over its audience--or certain members of its audience--or where the artist perhaps deliberately choses to break his or her illusions. For me, Sam and Rosie's thirteen children is one of these places. It breaks the magic of the fantasy, for me by the sheer enormity of the number. (I do know, personally and intimately, families of seven and ten and twelve children and I understand that size of family does not determine either dysfunction or success. My comments were directed towards the health aspects.) But perhaps this is to be expected, that somewhere towards the end, there will be definite signs of the parting of the way between book and reader. A family of five or eight would not have done this for me; it is this baker's dozen aspect. Who knows? Maybe it is one of Tolkien's jokes. davem, Well, I am not so sure that in Middle earth Eowyn's choices are limited to healing or slaying. She could be historian or loremaster. Granted, bar maid or miller or tanner would not be suitable for her status. Maybe she could open a riding academy. Joking aside, thank you for providing that quotation from Donovan. Putting Eowyn in the context of Valkyries is interesting, for she more than just the companion o guide of slain warriors on the journey to Valhalla. Yet, if I may point out something, I have not myself used the word 'feminist'. (I did use 'suffragette' in an earlier post.) Using modern in quotation marks was admittedly lazy, but let me explain. As I think we have discussed elsewhere, Eowyn is unlike other characters in that she is given a degree of psychological complexity which other characters do not have. She is, to my mind, a character on a slightly different order. Arwen, Galadriel to some extent, Goldberry--these are all female characters who incorporate large symbolic or typological qualities which determine their characteristcs and their actions. Eowyn has more complex attributes. Combined with her status as a shield maiden is her initial attraction to Aragorn. This attraction partakes of psychological depth and detail which more closely approximates characters in realistic fiction rather than in the earlier legends, tales and myths. I am still left with this fascinating question: why did Tolkien choose to portray the wrongness of war through the healing of a female character? Why is she the one given the desire for glorious death in battle and not others? (Perhaps I should ask, why is her desire healed and that of others not.) You are right that everything works symbolically--I said that myself. Yet, still, why choose the female character to work this out? Would it have worked to have Eomer cleansed of his warrior status? Is it possible that only through a female warrior could the condemnation of war be made feasible? We are left, of course, with the irony that even though war is shown to be tragic and wrong, a great deal of time is devoted to the grand and glorious exploration of the activities.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 09-12-2004 at 04:21 AM. |
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#8 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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My general inclination is to look at Tolkien’s characters not individually but as they fit into or, more properly, generate resonance within the structure of the tale. Bb, you made the point yourself – very well, I might add – that the characterisation of Éowyn and Rosie takes place within an overall structure. In the “paired characters” thread I argued that I think we have to examine each character in relation to the others that he or she echoes or interacts with thematically. I just believe that this is how Tolkien thought and created – his was an essentially Medieval imagination, according to which the individual person or character is simply insufficient to the task of bearing alone the full burden of generating meaning (like Frodo with the Ring???): that’s why the concept of the ‘hero’ is split amongst Aragorn, Frodo and Sam; ‘evil’ amongst Saruman, Sauron and Shelob; etc (not that I wish to kick of either of those debates here…) That’s why I began this thread with the four ‘significant’ women as they together form a corporate examination of ‘woman’. Éowyn’s place in this structure is an interesting one, insofar as she is, unlike the other women, neither static nor unmoving in relation to her exploration of what it means to ‘be’ a woman in the context of the story. That is, Galadriel is the goddess, and remains the goddess; Arwen is the maiden and remains the maiden; Rosie, well, is the mother – to end all mothers. Éowyn, however, ‘moves’ between or from or through each of these positions in some way. The offputting thing for Bb (and myself, I guess) is that she is presented as ‘evolving’ from a mode of action is defined as ‘masculine’ by Tolkien to a composite of the modes of the above women (she will become helpmeet for Faramir; the ‘goddess’ of Ithilien; presumably a mother?) – in this, she is being presented as the most ‘all around’ woman as she grows into the roles that women are granted in Tolkien’s world. In this, I think that she is like two other characters that, at first, may seem like an unflattering comparison: Boromir and Gollum. What I think Éowyn shares with these other two is that these three characters are the only ones in the story who legitimately change or alter both in their responses and in their character (as distinct from something like Frodo’s growth, which I see as the development of something already native to him – Boromir, Gollum and Éowyn all actually change as the story goes forward: which is very ‘modern’ and not very Medieval). Each of these characters explores the tensions generated at the ambivalent sites between certainties in the themes embodied by the other characters. Boromir is the (male) ‘hero’ who is caught between the modes of action embodied by Aragorn and Frodo: he desperately wants to do what both of them are trying to do – he wants to save his homeland and do the world a good (he brags constantly about Minas Tirith holding back Mordor); while he also wants to fulfil his individual destiny, become a worthy successor to his father, and wise and effective ruler of Gondor. As the fates of Aragorn and Frodo demonstrate, these two desires (for the good of the world, and the fulfilment of the individual) are not always (if ever) compatible. Frodo saves the world, but loses himself. Aragorn fulfils his destiny, which is what the world requires. Boromir’s conflict/impossible situation leads him to long for the Ring and his own destruction thereby. Gollum is the figure who is caught upon the nasssty hornses of the good/evil relation. It’s easy to see that Frodo is good, Sauron is evil – but with Gollum it’s more difficult. His tortured mind and spirit is fractured into two by, I think, the ongoing debate we’ve all been having about the nature of evil in LotR as internal vs external. Half of Gollum goes one way following Frodo (Smeagol is the poor hobbit who was seduced by the Ring and gives way to it of his own will) while the other half goes the other following Sauron (Gollum is the monster who imposes his evil acts and will on others – Smeagol included – overpowering them and brining in evil from outside the will). We’ve all seen how difficult this discussion about internal/external evil is – no wonder Gollum goes insane! But back to Éowyn and the women – like Boromir and Gollum, I see Éowyn as being very much caught between the modes of action/being defined by the other women. Like Arwen, she wants to help Aragorn (we do tend to forget that a major, if not the major factor in her decision to go to war is not for her own benefit but for the love of Aragorn – which is what motivates the men who follow him as well); like Galadriel, she wants to have some mode of power that will allow her a measure of effect beyond that which is proper to her; and like Rosie, she wants to be with her ‘mate’. Because she is so confused between these roles, she ends up being torn in a lot of different directions: her Arwen desire to help Aragorn gets all tangled up with her Rosie desire to marry him; her Galadriel desire for power nearly gets her killed, etc. This is why, I think, Éowyn is the most interesting woman character insofar as she explores the problems and tensions within the ideal that is expressed so unproblematically elsewhere. Just as Gollum is and always will be the fly in the ointment of any argument that tries to definitively state the nature of evil in Middle-Earth, and Boromir will forever be the bugbear of those who wish to lay to rest the arguments over heroic-action, Éowyn will prevent any final word being uttered on the role of women. Recognising this does two things for me, in relation to Éowyn. One, it makes me appreciate just how overwhelmingly important she is to the fabric of the whole – the fact that Tolkien felt that the ‘issue’ of women’s identity was so important to create an Éowyn is testimony to his very contemporary views of women and society. Two, the fact that she ends so ‘happily’ with husband, home and hearth, where his other ‘in-between’ characters are destroyed…well, that’s hard to read. Could it be that as a woman Éowyn has some special resource with which to avoid destruction that the other two lack? (It’s interesting as well that all three of these characters face as their greatest danger despair – Boromir despairs of himself and his city and thus wants the Ring; Gollum despairs of himself because the Ring has already destroyed who he is; Éowyn despairs of herself and her fate, but she is able to be ‘cured’ of her despair by her own actions at the Pelennor Fields and by Aragon and Faramir.)
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