LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 12 - Flight to the Ford

[davem]

Well, Tolkien follows the Norse tradition (shared by the Japanese, I believe) of making the Sun female & the Moon male, whereas most cultures saw them the other way round. Yet, I don't know that Aule's (admittedly strong) association with the materials of the earth makes the earth itself 'male'. Even in the cultures that had 'Smith' gods - like the Greek Hephaestos, & the Roman Vulcan - the earth itself was viewed as female. I still can't shake the idea of not just plants, but also the earth itself being symbolically female - maybe I've read too much mythology, & am influenced by that, but in this case I don't think I'm going against what I've said in the Canonicity thread, as I don't think Tolkien ever made a clear statement on the 'gender' of Arda.

[Child of the 7th Age]

The Wasteland is a strange image for Middle earth - where or what is the Grail?

Davem The interesting thing about the chapter discussions is you never know where things are heading! Despite my use of the term, I had not thought about linking the motif of the wasteland with the Grail legends as a whole.

I do want to clarify what I initially meant, since I was coming at this from a quite different angle. I did not mean for "wasteland" to typify Middle-earth as a whole, which your question above seems to suggest. Rather I was speaking of certain specific tracts of land. Leslie Ellen Jones in Myth and Middle Earth has written about Isengaard, Mordor, and the Shire of the Scouring as examples of the wasteland operating in Middle-earth. Her contention is that these represent not the medieval wastelands of the grail legend, but "modern" ones that have been created by the hand of war and technology. The prime ingredient of a wasteland for Tolkien, according to Jones, is for it to be stripped of trees.

What struck me in reading this chapter is that the specific area through which Strider and crew are trudging in this chapter sound suspiciously like a wasteland, but one modelled on medieval rather than modern terms. I wasn't thinking about the wider ramifications of the grail legend per se. Of course, we can look back and know about the Percival of Chretien de Troyes, Eschebach's Parzifal and such. I was thinking not of this literary tradition, but of the pre-Christian myth that preceded it.

Before any of the grail legend was set on paper, there were Celtic tales of myth and faerie that embodied the idea of the wasteland. (The literary embodiment of this earlier mythic tradition does appear in the Third Branch of the Mabinogi, but the legends themselves go back much deeper.)

Unlike the grail legends which would have been accessible only to the literate and privileged, these faerie concepts of wasteland would have been widespread through the general populace. In this "popular" medieval concept, a wasteland is a general term for lands that are of no use to humans. You can't really farm or graze or even make your living by hunting there. The popular wasteland even has monstors or evil spirits. (There are hints of this in the land Gawaine must go through when he meets the Green Knight.)

In the medieval mind, there is very little sense of the wilderness as a place of renewal and beauty which was so often voiced in the romantic era. The feeling is that the best land is domesticated and undomesticated land -- in effect, a wasteland --is a curse.

I have other ideas on this, but I actually want to put them up as a separate thread so will wait to discuss them there.....

[Lalwendë]

I think that there is something in the idea that Middle Earth is a 'feminine' presence. Tolkien was drawing on myths, legends and histories which did hold the earth itself to be female - this is where the phrase 'mother earth' springs from. Ancient cultures regarded the land as a mysterious female power, even going so far as to construct monuments celebrating this - one of the theories behind Silbury Hill is that it was a 'Mother' monument. The feminine was seen as the mysterious bringer forth of life - as an example of archaeological theories, barrows are said to have small openings to symbolise birth. Yes, it does not say explicitly that in ME the land is a feminine presence - but looking at what Tolkien drew upon, i would like to think that it is. But this has made me think...was Eru female?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

Yes, it does not say explicitly that in ME the land is a feminine presence - but looking at what Tolkien drew upon, i would like to think that it is. But this has made me think...was Eru female?

Try this:http://www.unclenicks.net/Garden/body_philosophy.html

Originally Posted by Child

(The literary embodiment of this earlier mythic tradition does appear in the Third Branch of the Mabinogi, but the legends themselves go back much deeper.)

Yes, but I don't think the Wasteland theme is limited to the Third Branch. It does have a different cause though, in that it is usually the result of the malignancy of the Otherworld beings (Caitlin Matthews has a lot to say on this subject in her two-volume study of the Mabinogion; Mabon & the Mysteries of Britain & Arthur & the Sovereignty of Britain). I do think Tolkien has leant towards the later, Christianised, view. In the earlier versions there is constant conflict between the OtherWorld inhabitants & the inhabitants of this world - which we see set out in the First Branch tale of Pwyll.

In the medieval mind, there is very little sense of the wilderness as a place of renewal and beauty which was so often voiced in the romantic era. The feeling is that the best land is domesticated and undomesticated land -- in effect, a wasteland --is a curse.

Certainly, this comes in later, yet even in the early medieval period (not counting the writings of the Celtic saints) there is an inkling of it - in the Vita Merlini Merlin runs wild into the Caledonian forest, driven mad by his grief, & is healed by a sacred spring (& by the teachings of Taliesin on the nature of the Universe).

Clearly, though, Tolkien sees the wounding of the Land as the result of a malicious act by evil forces, a result of their malice. I think we have to distinguish between wild & waste land, though. Often in the Irish legends the Wasteland is healed by the King's union or marriage with the Goddess of the Land, the figure of Sovereignty. The Otherworld is the realm of the Fairies, the Sidhe, who are out for revenge on men who have taken over their Land & driven them into the Hollow Hills. Alongside this runs the idea of the King who fails his people, or who is simply unlucky, or in the case of Vortigern, who betrays his people, & attempts to kill the young Merlin, who's blood shed on its foundations will (he is told) enable his tower to be built. In the Prophecies which follow Merlin predicts the wasting of the Land, & ultimately the 'wasting' of the Universe, as his vision extends as far as the ending of the Universe.

Middle earth is the victim of malicious attacks by its inhabitants, & it suffers upheaval & destruction on a massive scale, & it seems to respond with an almost conscious yearning to be healed - its interesting how the 'good' characters seem to have a deep love for the land, a desire to heal it & make it whole - which Tolkien seems to explain by having them on some deep level 'aware' of Arda Unmarred - a sense that the world is not as it should be - which drives them to struggle & sacrifice themselves if necessary, to bring about its healing. This is an interesting theme for me, that it is not a mythology which offers as reward not an eternity in some Nirvana of light & peace, but in a world healed & made perfect, a physical realm. This is clearly a Christian vision - a New Heaven & a New Earth, but it touches on earlier, Pagan ideas of the sacredness of the Living Land. Tolkien never takes for granted the polluted, wounded Land - it is always a deep, profound WRONG, which must be fought, because a wounded Land wounds its inhabitants psychologically & physically - Sam, on seeing the Waste before Mordor feels physically sick.

The woundedness of the Land is reflected in the woundedness of its inhabitants, & its healing brings about their own healing - symbolised in the Two Trees which begin & end the Legendarium.

[Encaitare]

Thanks for answering my question, davem. It was not exactly asking why the idea of femininity as a whole, but "Why the Old Forest?" You explained it quite well; much of Middle-earth could be considered a feminine presence, although I agree with what Aiwendil said:

We ought to consider this from the point of view of Tolkien's mythology; if we do, we see that there is a distinction to be drawn. The earth itself - the soil, the rock, the mountains - is associated with Aule and is masculine. But the plant life that covers it - the grass, the forests, the athelas - is associated with Yavanna and is feminine.

That makes sense with the Old Forest association. But, this has strayed from the chapter and so I shall try to find feminine presence in chapter 12.

"More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth" --Aragorn

followed by

But even as he held it [the Witch-King's blade] up in the growing light, they gazed in astonishment, for the blade seemed to melt, and vanished like a smoke in the air, leaving only the hilt in Strider's hand.

Firstly, the name of Elbereth was important because it was as if Frodo was "invoking" her power simply by speaking her name. All evil seems to fear her and her power, as even Morgoth/Melkor did:

Out of the deeps of Ea she [Varda/Elbereth] came to the aid of Manwe; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more then all others whom Eru made.

Second, as stated before the Sun, in Middle-earth, is feminine -- different from most mythology, but it works here to support this idea. The Sun is a powerful force of nature which, like the name of Elbereth, greatly weakens evil. Instead of in the movie, in which the blade simply "evaporates" at a nice timely point after Aragorn identifies it, it only vanishes with the arrival of the Sun.

Just another enforcement of the Sun's power (although perhaps it belongs more in the "Importance of Weather" thread):

The morning dawned bright and fair; the air was clean, and the light pale and clear in a rain-washed sky. Their hearts were encouraged, but they longed for the sun to warm their stiff cold limbs. As soon as it was light, Strider took Merry with him and went to survey the country from the height to the east of the pass. The sun had risen and was shining brightly when he returned with more comforting news.

A rather obvious statement on my part, but the Sun also serves to "light the way" and bring cheer into their hearts. Later it says that

Even Frodo felt better in the morning light

and then

Ever since the sun began to sink the mist before his eyes had darkened, and he felt that a shadow was coming between him and the faces of his friends.

which again, shows the weakening of evil in the daylight. That's enough for now on the Sun, there are several other references in this chapter as well. Near the end of the chapter Frodo tries to ward off the Nazgul by speaking Elbereth's name again:

"By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair," said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, "you shall have neither the Ring nor me!

Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The elf-horse reared and snorted. The foremost of the black horses had almost set foot on shore.

This time, Elbereth's name does not daunt the wraiths. This could be because when Frodo was stabbed on Weathertop, he was not under the influence of the wraiths, since he did not have the shard of the blade embedded in him. Now with the shard within him he began to slip into the "wraith world" and therefore was weaker. Then they were able to control him, as the Witch-King did by striking him dumb. But we also must take into consideration that he was in the wraith's world when he was stabbed, since he was wearing the Ring. However, he was more of an "intruder" in their world, not yet under their influence. Because of this he was more able to resist them, and his words had more sway.

I find Nilpaurion's point about the "avenging" blade to be very interesting. Although Frodo hears a "shrill cry" when he strikes at the Witch-King, Aragorn later says that it was his cry of "O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!" which probably was its cause, and the blade did no harm. Why, then, was Merry's blade able to harm the wraith? As before, I would say that since Merry was not in the wraith world when he struck at the Witch-King, his blade could harm him, but since Frodo was, his sword had no effect on the powerful Nazgul.

Wow, I just reread this... so many quotes! I hope I actually made a point or two somewhere in between them all!

[Guinevere]

@ Encaitare: you tried to explain why Frodo's sword did no harm to the Nazgûl, whereas Merry could injure the witchking. I think that Frodo simply missed the wraith and only struck its coat. If he had struck him, his blade would have shrivelled and perished like Merry's did, for "all blades perish, that pierce that dreadful King" as Aragorn says.

There is hardly anything I can write, after those deep discussions!
I agree with Child of the 7th age that there is more to Frodo than explained in the psychological analysis by Karyn Milos. (There was a discussion about that in Child's excellent thread "Frodo's sacrifice" about 2 years ago.) But this really belongs more to the end of the books.

Overall I get the impression of how long and cumbersome the way to Rivendell is and how painfully slow the progress of the fellowship , although time is pressing. Very realistic really. (In the movie, Middle-earth somehow seems much smaller...) Also it strikes me that Frodo's condition deteriorates only slowly, with intermittent recoveries. When they meet up with Bilbo's trolls he can even laugh. I was glad for thas respite! And again Sam shows us another unexpected side.
Even at the confrontation with the Nazgûl at the ford, Frodo has still enough pluck to face them and refuse their summons. (I understand that they had to rush the scenes in the movie, and even their omission of Glorfindel, but I can't forgive them the weak portrayal of Frodo! )
At my first reading I remember how thrilled I was at Glorfindel's appearance and how intrigued by the untranslated Elvish words!
The green "elf-stone" that he left on the bridge must have been the same kind of jewel as the Elessar then ?
I wonder if Frodo had heard about Luthien before, or did Strider's telling of that story leave such a deep impression that he called not only on Elbereth but on Luthien.

[Firefoot]

The green "elf-stone" that he left on the bridge must have been the same kind of jewel as the Elessar then ?

I wondered about this as well, and I am pretty sure that they are of the same type. I can see why even if they weren't the same Aragorn still might take it as a sign, being Elvish and all, but I think it probably had special significance to Aragorn because it was foretold that he would take the name of Elessar. Perhaps this was why he was able to take it for a sign that he was able to cross the bridge, and not just dropped by pure chance: because it was a green elf-stone.

I wonder if Frodo had heard about Luthien before, or did Strider's telling of that story leave such a deep impression that he called not only on Elbereth but on Luthien.

It is possible that he had heard of Luthien before from Bilbo, but I think it is more likely that the reason he used Luthien's name was because of Strider's story. Bilbo may have heard of her from the Elves and maybe even knew a good bit of her story, but he did not have the resources in the Shire that he did at Rivendell. Strider probably knew more and was perhaps better able to tell the story because he was raised in Rivendell, and it was his family history as well. Another interesting thing I wonder about is why he used Luthien's name at the ford but not when he was attacked on Weathertop. If it had been because of Aragorn's story, I would think that it would have been more fresh in his mind. On the other hand, maybe it hadn't quite sunken in yet, and being that Frodo was riding Bill and not walking, maybe he had more time to think about it, and it seemed fitting at the ford.