Were Balrogs winged?

[noldo]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Pointy ears

And Legolas wasn't a blonde. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Pointy ears

Yes he was. See the Hobbit, describing his father, Thranduil the Woodland King, as having golden hair. There is also a reference in LoTR to his hair appearing to be golden (don't have cite right now). I say this as a convert because I always visualized him with dark hair.

Pointy ears? I don't think so. I tend to agree that otherwise there would notbe the emphasis on eyes. Also elves were, in form (hroa), the same as men.

Back to Balrogs. I've never seen any convincing evidence that they do not have wings. Those who embrace this position tend to rely on inference from the LoTR chapter on the battle on the bridge of Moria, focusing on the reference to the Balrog's shadow as opposed to the clear statement concerning his wings spreading. Why would a Maia/spirit need wings? Because they had placed themselves in a physical body complete with its constraints.



--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Pointy ears

400 Posts!

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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Re: Pointy ears

Mithadan, you rock! 100 to go! Start thinking of that cool personal title.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[noldo]

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Re: Pointy ears

Mithadan, what I meant was that you people are pointlesly arguing on things not mentioned in the books. They're not canon. All we can do is to let our imagination run wild and forget about all those conflicts in the works of Tolkien. It is in our visions that lie the very treasures of these imaginative pieces.

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[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

Ah, Wight, my old nemesis. We meet again at last. I don’t know how much mileage we’ll be able to get out of this one, though, since there’s so little to go on text-wise. I’ll just say this: in the post above and even in your article you admit that Balrogs may have wings.

Maiar seem to need bodies if they want to play in Middle-earth. And I don’t think you can back up the statement that Maiar (at least, “clothed” Maiar) don’t need wings to fly. When does a Maia fly without them? Gandalf needs the help of the Eagles.

Congrats on the milestone Mithadan, and thanks for slogging through my article!


</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I have to say that your idea on men having pointed ears is not an original idea.<hr></blockquote>
Probably not, I did mention it before, and it is essentially in the text, so some-one has probably thought of it before.

My conclusion came about from a different angle though.

Drawings of hobbits with pointy eary by Tolkien: Pictures, descriptions of hobbits with pointy ears by Tolkien: Letters, descriptions of hobbits looking like men -- ONLY SHORTER: LotR, the Legolas issue and the relation of stem -Las to leaf shaped: Letters and History , and that hobbits and elves and by extension men (as it is now converging from BOTH sides of comparison), have pointed ears.

Don't remember if I posted my conclusions on Wings here (I really don't think so however).

Will I do it again?
Nope.
Let's just say I agree whole-heartedly with neither camp.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 12/28/00 12:41:08 pm

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 404</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Noldo, pointless? Only to the extent that all of our extended discussions about the details and implications of a long-deceased fiction writer are pointless. I will concede that the issue of whether a Balrog has wings is not exactly paramount in the scheme of things. I've watched threads on this subject come and go without participating in the past, in part because of my view that everyone's vision of the details of Middle Earth is very individual in nature. I just couldn't resist weighing in this time because, for whatever reason, it is a controversial issue.
I've never understood why it is controversial though. As quoted above, JRRT was very clear (and thus canonical) on this point.

Underhill, I agree. No doubt a disembodied (unclothed?) Maia can fly or otherwise transport itself. But with a body and its accompanying limitations, something more is required to enable flight. Wings, an eagle, etc.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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Re: Balrogs

I've seen a bird fly!
I've seen a house fly!
But I ain't never seen a Balrog fly! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Balrogs

Hmmmmm.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
&quot;And indeed the most ancient songs of the Elves... tell of shadow-shapes that walked in the hills above Cuivienen, or would pass suddenly over the stars...&quot;
<hr></blockquote>
Silmarillion, pp.49-50.

No Nazgul then. No dragons either. What could fly above Cuivienen and pass over the stars? Hmmmmm. Wait! I know. Tom Bombadil and his hang glider! Or could it be one of Morgoth's most trusted aerial servants?

OK. I'll bite. If not for flying, why would Balrogs have wings, keeping in mind they formed their own bodies.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[noldo]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Balrogs

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Okay, I'm lost... So, it was the Balrog of Khazad-dum that wasn't capable of flying, right? And what if, that only this Balrog, of all, wasn't capable of flying. This creature's been under the rock for centuries: its wings have hit the walls of the caverns and whatever places it crawled in...

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[Brian The Blue]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: Balrogs

this is getting heated. lol. Still no answer to the question though. But i think that Mithadan is wrong.....it was Tom Bombadil on his hang glider. Thats my story and im sticking to it.

&quot;dont meddle in the affairs of wizards...&quot;

</p>

[Brian The Blue]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 22</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

20 posts yeah yeah yeah

pile o bones brian
that has a nice ring to it.

(pardon the ring pun)

boy the jokes are bad

&quot;dont meddle in tha affairs of wizards...&quot;

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 145</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

And I used to hold all of you in such high regards. But now I know the truth, you are all just like me, muahahahahahahahah. Perhaps Gandalf just couldn't remember how to fly, unlike riding a bike maybe you need to keep flying to stay with it. And now I think that the balrogs could fly but could not carry more weight than their own bodies. Simple weight ratios, a 5 oz. swallow cannot carry a 1 pound coconut. Not even two swallows carring it on a line of creeper, under theri dorsal guiding feathers.

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 325</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Just for fun; and merely to cause incitement...

Anyone remember the winged steeds of the Nazgul?
They were perversions of the Eagles...
I think THEY were around and about when Cuivienen was heavily populated.

BWAHAHAHA err... HOHHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 414</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Nyaaaahhhhh, (munch, munch) could be. Or not.

Durelen, see One Hand Tied Behind Their Backs thread re powers of incarnate Maiar.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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Re: Balrogs

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;And indeed the most ancient songs of the Elves... tell of shadow-shapes that walked in the hills above Cuivienen, or would pass suddenly over the stars...&quot;<hr></blockquote>

Mithadan! This is a huge stretch to say these shadow-shapes were Balrogs. You're putting words where they aren't. Shame on you! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

But I'll answer the question.
Since Balrogs didn't need wings to fly, maybe they didn't need wings at all. And maybe they didn't have any. And maybe the one mention of their wings was metaphoric after all.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 417</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Perhaps I am putting words where they are not. But speculation is fair game.

But concerning &quot;metaphoric&quot; wings, you are omitting words where they are. JRRT says &quot;his wings stretched from wall to wall.&quot; Absent some clear evidence to the contrary, the position of those who say Balrogs do not have wings amounts to stating that JRRT did not mean what he said.

Fair for you to say the Sil. does not state that Balrogs flew over Cuivienen. That is true, it does not. Fair for me to say LoTR says Balrogs have wings. That is also true, it does.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1668</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Definition:
METAPHOR - An implied comparison between two objects without the use of “like” or “as”.

source - http://www.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Idioms.htmwww.robibrad.demon.co.uk/Idioms.htm</a>

Omitting nothing, the good professor may have metaphorically linked the two passages concerning wings. Then again, he may not have <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 268

I'm dragging in citations from my own post, and don't you dare to accuse me of selfplagiarizm!

Then Thorondor bore up Glorfindel's body out of the abyss, the same abyss, mind you where

So was not an abyss too narrow a place for a greatest of the eagles? Or was he a size of, say, chickenhawk and Glorfindel that of a chicken? Does anyone implies that Thorondor was mountainclimber in disguise who climbed down the abyss with a rope, put the rest of Glorfindel into a bag and climbed back? They are wrong wrong wrong

Taken from the post #11 from One Hand Tied Behind Their Backs (by Mithadan)

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 158</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
vings

Well, theLotR says it[ WINGS]
I believe it and that settles it for me. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

I have seen [at the white council ] extreeeeemely long and convoluted arguments for both sides that left my eyelids drooping -but the best the nowingers can come up w/ are these falling problems the balrogs seem to have quite frequently. One cogent argument re: 1st and 3rd age balrogs is tat they stem from different and conflicting conceptions never fully harmonized.
We may rest assured however that the MOVIE will eternally decide it for us!

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 329</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: vings

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> -but the best the nowingers can come up w/ are these falling problems the balrogs seem to have quite frequently.<hr></blockquote>
You must have missed my analysis on the text re: flaming aspect then.

It WAS a different approach.

<img src=wink.gif ALT="">

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1674</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: vings

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 1st and 3rd age balrogs is tat they stem from different and conflicting conceptions never fully harmonized.<hr></blockquote>

I kind of have these type of thoughts about trolls....


The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 244</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: vings

*sigh*

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 157</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: vings

How about we say that some did and some didn't, but Gothmog and the Moria one will have to have no wings or it is all silly. and don't say that this theory(my 3rd or 4th on balrog wings I believe) is stupid. It could hold a lot of weight, the only reason they are balrogs is because their fea defines them as such. they are maiar choosing there own hroa, so that says that they can have wings if they want them or not, depending on what they like.

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 160</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
vings

Very good point Dureleen.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 428</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: vings

Indeed, Durelen makes a good point. Balogs are spirits of fire, maiar of a certain type. Whether they form a body which has wings may, to some degree, be personal choice (or a choice imposed by their master). In the discussion above, I, on occaission, limited my comments to the Moria Balrog. It is possible that the Moria Balrog had wings while others did not. The reference to the Silmarillion which I quoted does not necessarily mean that all the Balrogs rose up and went over Hithlum to come to Lammoth and save Morgoth. However, there is no textual evidence that some Balrogs did not have wings; only inference from, for example, the duel between Glorfindel and the balrog in the Echoriath where both fell and Thorondor recovered the Glorfindel's body. Another inference could be that the Balrog's wings were damaged in the duel.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Grey Fool]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Honestly.

There's nothing quite like a debate for debate's sake, is there? OBVIOUSLY JRRT conceived the Balrog as a winged creature - it says so in FotR, as has been quoted already. The writing need not be interpreted to mean anything other than it says.

As to the purpose of the wings, now there's another matter. It seems likely to me that the Durin's Bane had wings not really for practicality's sake; after all flying around inside a disused mine would be pretty hazardous for anyone that size. I reckon they were put there to fit the Balrog to the commonly perceived image of a Demon or Devil, in other words the wings are the part that most readers are familiar with and can relate to from mythology and so on. Tolkien was adept at drawing on innate images to act as a hook in his writing: wings, pointed ears, sharp teeth, eyes that glow, blah blah etc etc.. all classic popular images, put in as helpful guides. (I wonder if he had any idea about the amount of trouble they would cause in the future?)

To continue briefly in this literal vein - Perhaps the Balrog of Moria is the definitive Balrog, and any other sort of outdoor specimens are just mere offspring or pale shadows. It would make sense for the outdoor Balrogs to have wings for them to get about etc, especially if they wanted to stay out of sight of other ground-dwellers. Natural selection would imply that for a mine-dweller to have wings and an outdoor Balrog to be wingless, would be a bit backward. Possibly Natural Selection has nothing to do with it in this case; perhaps any outdoor Balrogs would have been wingless mutants, outcasts, rejects or something. Whatever they were, they kept themselves extremely quiet at some most exciting times <img src=indifferent.gif ALT=":/"> .

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Honestly.

I think the whole point is that its NOT obvious unless taken in an absolute literal way. But the English language is full of figures of speech, of which the good professor was a master (as great writers tend to be). Which, when and where has already been discussed above.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Honestly.

Three more things. The first is that Balrogs could be looked at as being like dragons. There were dragons, and there were winged dragons. Another thing that I didn't think of before that actually helps my opposition. The moon was attacked by creatures that Morgoth sent, the moon was scorched forever after, leading one to believe that something flew up to get to the moon, and that that something was hot enough to scorch the moon. The third thing is Tolkien intended for ME and everything else he created to not be an allegory, and to not represent anything here on Earth today. So wouldn't you think that Balrogs were not meant to look like devils.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 438</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Honestly.

Just because JRRT denies allegory doesn't mean he would not clothe a classic demon with classic demon's wings. He does operate from or draw upon existing mythology in his work. Whether the Moria Balrog's wings are made of flesh and bone, shadow or tissue paper, JRRT names them &quot;wings&quot;. Whether all Balrogs had wings cannot be resolved, but the one example we have is winged.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 144</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Were Balrog's winged?

Yes and no.

Ha!

&quot;Go not to the Elves for council, for they will say both no and yes.&quot; <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 304

No comments about tissue paper

But here I met the phrase I can't leave unanswered

by Durelen (Orald)

The moon was attacked by creatures that Morgoth sent, the moon was scorched forever after, leading one to believe that something flew up to get to the moon, and that that something was hot enough to scorch the moon.

I'm awfully sorry, but that helps your opposition not. Even despite round earth theory and a different cosmogony, which become predominant in JRRT's late writings, one can't use wings to get to the moon, simply because there are such things as 1.air of breath and flight and 2. Ilmen which flesh unaided cannot endure . I doubt that by flesh here's meant human flesh only, which means, that if balrogs were to scorch the moon, they must have approached him bodyless, and therefore, not winged.

Unaided by Whom is another question. If not Eru himself, one needs help of the Valar obviously


...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them.

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 182</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Were Balrog's winged?

It doesn't really matter what I said anyway, I am pretty sure I was wrong to begin with. Weren't they spirits of shadow that attacked the moon and not spirits of fire.

</p>

[Grey Fool]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 39</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Figures of speech

It seems more likely to me that the &quot;figures of speech&quot; of which the prof was so fond, tend in those places where Balrogs are mentioned, to actually imply flight rather than discredit it. One example that you're no doubt totally familiar with has to be:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband... Balrogs lurked still... and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Needless to say, there is no evidence of wings at this stage in the development. On this point I hold no dispute. However, they &quot;arose&quot; somehow. Later in the Silmarillion, there appears a brief reference to their speed capability:
[qoute]&quot;Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the plain.&quot;[/quote]
This passage is interesting in that it hints at two elements simultaneously (a device which appears frequently in the Silmarillion); the swiftness of the lava i.e the strength and power of Morgoth's determination to destroy Beleriand for his own means, compared with that of your average Balrog. Also, at Cirith Thoronath there is reference to: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;...the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Sadly, no explanation is given as to how they both fell to ruin. The image of a Balrog waiting beneath the shadows of the highest peaks of the Crissaegrim or thereabouts to do battle WITHOUT WINGS however, is less probable than the winged version, surely <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> .

I still hold that Tolkien used various well-known images, in particular derived from popular myth and legend, to depict his arguably original inhabitants of Middle-earth. It is nigh on impossible to invent a creature that doesn't resemble one already known, however remotely, because the simple fact is that our imagination is, very basically, made up of mixtures of things that have had an impression on us in the past. The idea is for an author to exploit his limitations by tuning into the psyche of the masses and providing them with new forms of what they are already familiar with. This creates rapport and hopefully sells books. Tolkien uses this all the time in his books. The similarities to our own world are many and various. The ORIGINS of his universe are unique, as are the stories set therein. Our fascination starts with the unknown territory that he presents, which leads us into an assumed world other than our own. We are inspired by his ability to suspend disbelief; to leave so much hanging in the balance that we gradually cease to question the structure that surrounds us in the stories. From my personal need to indulge in fantasy and to delve into alternative realities, I openly accept what is laid down before me in words. But at the same time I question the origins of some of the elements of Middle-earth as they were when they first arose in the mind of their author. And I see no reason to suppose that Balrogs (for example) are not an ascendant of another far more familiar form of Daemon, seen in certain medieval architecture and gothic renderings of satanic scenes. After all, the man was brought up and indeed lived with strong Catholic beliefs and interests. There is no threat to the viability or originality of Middle-earth, because the intricacy of the structure derives from the imagination of a well-educated and open-minded individual. As with all works of great beauty that I have so far discovered, the works of JRRT cause echos of things in me that I believed were long buried or forgotten. It's those familiar images and underlying emotions that are the indispensable and undying part of the books.

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[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 284</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Flying Balrogs

Great points, Grey Fool. I agree that phrases and words used by Tolkien are suggestive of a winged creature. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> It [the Moria Balrog] came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure.

With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge.<hr></blockquote>These phrases conjure images (at least in my mind) of a winged beast. But arguing Balrog wings is like arguing politics or religion. The chances of converting someone from one side of the argument to the other are slim to none.

BTW, Mithadan, I thought the Silma ref about Cuivienen was some sharp reading. Surely Balrogs are among Morgoth’s oldest servants.

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[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 187</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Flying Balrogs

To counter Mithadan's point. When I read over the section in Silm. about the Sun and the Moon I found that the spirits assailing Tilion, were spirits of shadow, not fire, and could easily traverse Ilmen. So I think that those creature that flew over Cuivienen probably were not Balrogs, and were the same spirits that attacked the moon.

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[Raw]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Flying Balrogs

I haven't read all the posts so my question may be answered alredy. But i think that the Balrogs was winged, maybe not all of them... And i read in Silmarillion that Sauron was a Balrog???

/RAW

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[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 218</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Flying Balrogs

No Sauron wasn't but he was powerful nonetheless

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[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 219</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Whoa!

I passed up 200 posts and didn't even realize. I must be posting like mad.

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