Sage Hobbit movie advice for PJ?

[Encaitare]

phantom-- If Bard were to have a love interest it wouldn't have to play a huge part in the story, nor would she have to be a Xena character, as was seen in the movie-version of certain other LotR ladies... *cough cough* But it could be included just as a little side bit, to lend some emotion and show what everyone has to lose should they be defeated.

The problem with Bard is that he doesn't appear until near the end so, unless they expand his role to feature throughout, he won't really work as the peg onto which to hang the love interest. Can't see what else would work, though ... --SpM

Oh, yes... I'd forgotten that he wasn't even there most of the time... drat. Must reread the book.

[the phantom]

I should imagine that it will be the non-purists that they will primarily aiming to entice into the theatres. It's all about bums on seats, my dear boy.

You don't think previews showing giant spiders, goblins, and trolls will get people into the theater?

And that's not even counting the dragon. Toss in a little Smaug action- I think the seats would fill up just fine.

But if it's aimed at a wider audience (which seems more likely given the incredible success of the LotR films) they will undoubtedly look for a love interest.

I disagree with this notion. I have never sat down to watch a movie and thought "There'd better be a love interest." If people don't know the story then they don't know what to expect and if the movie is good I doubt the idea of a "love interest" will even occur to them.

Like I asked before, did any of you, while reading Bilbo's tale, actually stop and notice that there was no love interest? If you didn't, why would you assume other people will?

Does anybody really go into a movie with a checklist?? 1)must have a love interest 2)must have a major battle 3)main characters all must have a major flaw 4)must have a prominent female character 5)must have a crazy surprise at the end- etc.... I know I don't. I go and watch the movie and if it's good then it's good. Who cares if some things weren't included? Every story/movie isn't the same so why should every one of them need to include the same stuff?

When you take a perfectly good story and try to add unnecessary things it just ruins it because the additions rarely mesh cleanly with the original (just like my example of me trying to add to a Bach concerto).

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by phantom

I disagree with this notion. I have never sat down to watch a movie and thought "There'd better be a love interest."

I'm not talking about what you, or I, or anyone else here expects from a film. I am talking about what the general film-going public expects from a film. Or, more accurately, what the film studios and financiers think the general film-going public expects from a film. But you would expect them to get it right, given the amount of money at stake and the resources that they have to gauge public opinion.

Like I asked before, did any of you, while reading Bilbo's tale, actually stop and notice that there was no love interest?

It was written primarily as a children's tale (albeit one which adults can enjoy too). As I said, if the film is made as a children's film, the question of love interest won't arise.

Personally, I would be quite glad if they did a film of The Hobbit without shoe-horning in a love interest, particularly as it is difficult to see where and how it would work. But I have my suspicions.

When you take a perfectly good story and try to add unnecessary things it just ruins it because the additions rarely mesh cleanly with the original ...

I don't disagree with this as a general proposition, although it can work. I thought that some of the additions in the LotR films worked very well.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

originally posted by TSM
" I thought that some of the additions in the LotR films worked very well."
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Yes. Boromir was a more appealing character (I don't recall the Lorien scene
being in the book?), and even XenaArwen generally made movie sense
(except for excising Frodo's line at the Ford) and her initial scene was the
sexiest bit in the 3 movies.

And you have to be realistic. A PJ big budget movie will incorporate elements to
have it appeal to as wide an audience as possible. I can understand the
phantom's frustration, though. A personal irritation to me is the almost
inevitable car chase/fight put in movies to appeal to young "Nascar sons"
(it was absurd in Will Smith's movie version of I, Robot).

And one more suggestion for PJ: In an echo of the well-done prologue to
FOTR, how about one in which Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur, meets Thrain, and
gets the map and key to the back door of Erebor?

[Mithalwen]

A little depends on wether it is done as a prequel to the LOTR films - which would mean it made sense to have all the white council stuff - or as a "stand alone" film which happens to feature characters and elements of the lotr films, where the white council would be a needless distraction. Also if he kept it as a children's film (since The Hobbit it is a children's book ), there is even less need for love interest - and the viloence should be toned down. Personally I would love it to be done as one of those wonderful Sunday afternoon children's serials . There are all the little cliff hangers that would lend themselves to serialisation. to I wouldn't shrink the number of Dwarves, although as in the books somewould be more distinctive than others ... Dori and Bombur for example.

Sadly I think Ian Holm is perhaps too old but would it be too confusing to have Billy Boyd, the oldest and most physically similar of the Hobbits? I am sure with a different accent ... I would like Jason Isaacs as Thranduil, Alan Rickman as the Master of Laketown (and maybe Smaug), Hugh Jackman as Bard the Bowman. Maybe J R-D could do Dain if he didn't want to do a bigger dwarf part - or maybe Beorn. I

[lindil]

No Aragorn or Arwen. Bad chronology and destined only to be cheesy.

Who wants to see posters of the Hobbit w/ Bilbo, Gollum and Aragorn and Arwen!

Emphasizing all of the many threads we find in Unfinished Tales material:

The Thranduil/Celeborn and Galadriel split . Thranduil seemingly inherited his father's anti-Noldorin bent and may have blamed the continuing problem of Sauron on the Ring technology which Noldor [galadriel's cousin [[2nd or 1st once removed?]]. Legolas can enter in subtly I would hope could that is probably more than we can hope for.

The above tension may be why Gandalf never specificaly tells Thorin how to get to Thranduil and out of the Forest [the trail ended mysteriously in the swamps after the last earthquake].

...Opening scene...

We would begin w/ Gandalf stealthily in Dol Guldor sneaking into the HQ to find Sauron [disquised as a wringwraith?] catching a peak of Sauron and meeting and receiving the map from Thrain in Dol Guldor, Sauron sends Orcs and such to follow the fleeing Gandalf down to the Anduin where and elven boat whisked him away as stray arrows whizz about, or better yet a rolling white mist aids the escape [and echoing Eorl's being aided by Galaldriel].

Gandalf is then seen conversing with Galaldriel and the White Council.
Saruman's dissembling hinted at.

Celeborn asks what can be done about driving him out, and Sauruman asking [slyly taunting?] why his kinsman Thranduil will not help especially as Sauron is in his Forest. Yes we all know the stated 'boundaries' of his realm, the forest north of the Old Road. 'Outside of it we no longer have for the concern the Exiles of The West, Eldarin and Edain have caused and stirred up. Period.


"Surely some way can be made to reunite us with one of the few allies in this region we should have, and for the Second Age did".
Perhaps a Glorfindel or Elrond... That kind of thing, but much better written I hope, and then as we see



Gandalf saying he would follow a few leads and then we cut to Bilbo at Bag End and Gandalf coming up the path and bidding him good day as Bilbo begins a painful and pitiful process of making a fool of himself in front of Gandalf and soon here after the Dwarves.

And so on.

I would stick pretty close to the book and re-use the Dwarf and Orc armies PJ will already need in the end to give us a meaty flash back of the basic events of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs over the execution of the Thror [my grand father says Thorin and the last King under the Mountain].

We would see the Dwarves do their ensemble and Baritone/Bass/Contrabass harmonies [I would make it somewhat reminiscent of the 3 part harmonies of the Georgian Orthodox Church. Angular, sonorous, but taking suprising turns, i have ne ver heard the folk music there. But it might be even more similar.

Should the destruction of Erebor be shown yet and Smaug the Magnificent be revealed early on, via's Thorin's recounting? I say no. Maybe a rush of wings and distant fire and hurrying refugees, perhaps a destructive sweep of a tail through clouds, battering the towers of Dale...

Gandalf and Thorin arguing [from The Quest for Erebor] once Bilbo was carted off from his fit....



Bree would be an interesting way point and a chance for us to see how isolated Bilbo has been as he encounter the Big People in Breeland, and maybe a last stop at the forsaken Inn and a glimpe of serious Ranger activity and perhaps a Troll alert posted on the front of the Door to the Inn!

After that a way most be figured out, i think to make use of the mockery of Thorin and Co. ,but eliminate the actual lyrics and childishness of the elves.

I would do it pretty straight from the Book till the Caves of Thranduil and hopefully PJ and Howe and Lee can catch the Avarin/Sylvan(east Elf) feel of the Elves there. Legolas can perhaps lead the band that captures the Dwarves...

Well something like that I would like, but my expectations are much lower.



to those who suffered through the first draft, my apologies...

- L

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"Gandalf and Thorin arguing [from The Quest for Erebor] once Bilbo was carted off from his fit...."
-------------------------
I like that concept as a way to bridge the children's Hobbit and adult LOTR.
I rather doubt PJ has read works like UT (especially footnotes, too much work )
but I think there are hints that P. Boyens and/or Fran Walsh have. It could
work as a prologue, especially to get non-book attendees up to speed on The
Hobbit and its connection to LOTR.

Suggestions like Ian H's of a tv limited series would work well but I think there's
just too much $$$$$ in movies (and more scope for PJ's pyrotechnics, which is
both good and bad- since he seems to get carried away with battle scenes).
Still, the Battle of Five Armies is almost tailor-made for him, especially with the
big finale with Beorn.

[Encaitare]

After that a way most be figured out, i think to make use of the mockery of Thorin and Co. ,but eliminate the actual lyrics and childishness of the elves.

Oh, goodness me, yes. Please, no "tra-lally-lally, down here in the valley"! Poor Elrond must have been driven mad by all that infernal singsong, no wonder he went over the Sea!

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

"Gandalf and Thorin arguing [from The Quest for Erebor] once Bilbo was carted off from his fit...."
-------------------------
a tv limited series would work well but I think there's
just too much $$$$$ in movies (and more scope for PJ's pyrotechnics, which is
both good and bad- since he seems to get carried away with battle scenes).
Still, the Battle of Five Armies is almost tailor-made for him, especially with the
big finale with Beorn.

I know that the movie money means that this is unlikely to happen - I just feel that it will be so simplified to get it down to a child friendly length and that the story as it stands would fit the format so well. I quite agrre about the battle scenes being excessive - I mean they spent more time on the cave troll than Lorien