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Old 09-20-2004, 08:51 AM   #1
Kuruharan
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Aside from the importance the chapter plays in the advancement of the plot, The Council of Elrond is one of the more important chapters for setting the tone of Middle-earth. There are so many other issues touched upon that it lends a great deal of depth to the world.

We also have our first “visit” from Saruman in this chapter. In it Tolkien makes what I think is a rather important philosophical statement that lends a great deal of insight to his way of thinking. I’m thinking, of course, of the, “And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom” line. I believe this may be one of his more important slaps against modern society and “the machine.”
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Old 09-20-2004, 12:33 PM   #2
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This is the second history chapter in LotR, parallel to chapter 2 of Book I. There we learned enough about the Ring to motivate the story of Book I; the function of this chapter, in terms of plot, is to motivate the rest of the story.

Taking the Ring to Mount Doom is obviously an incredibly dangerous course of action, and if not set up correctly, it would be all too easy for the reader to doubt that such a course is really wise. The risk is that Gandalf, Elrond, and the rest will look like fools - or worse, their actions will not be believable, but will look like manipulation on the part of the author in order to bring about the plot he wants. It is critical, therefore, that the reader understand the necessity of taking the Ring to Mordor. This is part of the reason that we need a whole chapter devoted to the Council.

It's really a testament to his story-telling prowess that Tolkien is able to pull this chapter off. It could very easily have become extremely tedious. But for Tolkien its not just a chapter of exposition to be tolerated; it's powerful and enjoyable in its own right. I think it's interesting to consider just how Tolkien manages this. I don't pretend to have the whole answer but a few ideas are:

1. The exposition is strongly motivated by the need to decide what to do with the Ring.

2. The exposition only partially takes the form of history - there is also much that concerns recent events (Gloin's story, Gandalf's story, Legolas's news about Gollum, etc.).

3. The characters are more than just repositories of necessary information - they each have a distinct personality, which comes through in both the content and the style of their speech. Shippey notes the way that, for example, Dwarves tend to use short sentences and the way Elrond typically inverts his word order to emphasize certain words, or to put the verb second.

4. The backstory is interesting. For Tolkien, the story of the Last Alliance is not merely valuable as a prerequisite for the story at hand; it's valuable in itself, as a story in its own right. It has plot, characters, and suspense of its own.
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Old 09-20-2004, 12:37 PM   #3
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Tuor touches on one of the things that I find most interesting in this chapter from a plot (it has always been a favourite becasue of the high elf involvement) is the idea of the "Calling" but not by Elrond. I have just rambled on about this in teh role of fate thread and I am loath to repeat myself beyond saying that I think it is interesting that it was Boromir who was most directly "called" by a force beyond the unfolding of events. However the fact that Faramir was "called" first and most frequently suggests that fate wanted him to go - which I feel would have been catastrophic for the quest. Also did fate cause Boromir to lose his horse and so arrive after Frodo rather than long before? I have to check when Boromir set out but clearly it was long before the Hobbits left the Shire.

I will hang fire with my "Why Legolas?" theories, but on a lighter note, I would say that Erestor always struck me as a scholar rather than a warrior (but I rpg-ed him for a while which may have coloured my view).
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Old 09-20-2004, 01:47 PM   #4
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Had Elrond already decided what to do with the Ring? Had Gandalf? Or were they really examining every option here before deciding? They certainly did explore every possibility, from the brave to the reckless via the absolutely inane - 'Lets through it in the Sea! That'll solve our problem!'. Its pretty obvious that some of them are either not the sharpest knives in the drawer, or they are petrified out of their wits.

We learn quite a lot about a number of characters - Aragorn has a nasty side - he was 'not gentle' with Gollum, & in fact virtually admits to 'taming Smeagol' by beating him & depriving him of food & water. Gandalf shows for the first time his mastery in a battle of wits, twisting Saruman's arguments, tearing them apart. In a sense he actually does break them to find what they are made of, & shows Saruman up for what he truly is. Bilbo's offer to take back the Ring shows both his courage & that the desire for it has not left him. Frodo, while wanting desperately to remain in rivendell with Bilbo suddenly finds himself speaking words which seem to come from someone else - the 'other half' of him, which Gildor spoke to him of in the earlier draft.

And Boromir - certainly not the Boromir of the movie! This Boromir is so full of himself, so certain of his superior wisdom - as far as he's concerned he's the warrior - he's been on the front lines & knows what these 'armchair generals' don't - that there's something very powerful & very nasty heading right for their comfortable little world that's going to pounce & gobble them all up. And what do they do in the face of that? Why, start heating up the forge to turn their most devastating 'sword' into a ploughshare!

The Dwarves are confused - Gloin virtually admits that Dain hasn't decided what to do about the Messenger's offer - well, if all the dwarvish hoards of wealth had at root a Ring, how tempting would the offer of one of them be? Yet, the Dwarves themselves claim to be 'concerned' only about what the men of Dale might do. The Elves of Mirkwood seem pretty careless in their custodianship of Gollum - they effectively fall asleep on watch, allow him to escape, & then end their pursuit of him because they get a bit too close to Dol Guldur, &, well, they don't go that way, so they just had to forget the whole thing.

What we have is everyone caught up in their own concerns, & looking to pass the buck. They gather in Rivendell to ask for counsel, & it basically takes Elrond & Gandalf, with a little help from Aragorn, 30 odd pages to snap them out of their self obsession, & get them to wake up, stop being stupid ('No, really, we could throw it in the Sea, walk away & pretend it never happened!' - 'Why, I'm sorry, but that's not a very intelligent suggestion! What we should do is hand it over to that looney prancing about in the Old Forest, walk away & pretend it never happened!' 'No, This is foolishness! The intelligent thing to do is give it to me, let me total Sauron, & then, er, well, we can cross that bridge when we come to it' etc, etc, etc).

What we're seeing is a bunch of people who really haven't got a clue, being guided to agree on the only possible sensible option - take it to the Fire & destroy it. I think Elrond knew what the descision would have to be all along, & was almost sitting back & letting everyone get their stupid ideas out of the way, so that they could be shown to be silly, & in the end, hopefully, they would all come to see what he knew was the inevitable course. Perhaps we have a play on words in the title of this chapter - not simply the Council of Elrond, but the counsel of Elrond, because in the end, its his show, he steers it where he knows it must go.
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Old 09-20-2004, 02:15 PM   #5
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1420!

Davem:
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What we're seeing is a bunch of people who really haven't got a clue, being guided to agree on the only possible sensible option - take it to the Fire & destroy it.
First off I want to say what a well thought out, well put post, I think you nailed it on the head with the dwarves, elves, Boromir etc. And the whole "throw it in the sea" LOL!

Anyway with the quote of yours that I have posted, I think we see a lot of that throughout this book. We see of a lot of people who desire the same goal, but want to deal with it in their own way, or in a totally different way to reach that goal. As a quick example, Frodo and Gollum both want to keep the ring away from Sauron, but Frodo wants to throw it in the fire, destroy it. Gollum wishes to take it for himself. I think you see that a lot here in LOTR, but I don't want to get ahead of myself just yet. And because they desire the same goal, they are able to help eachother out eventhough they might not intend of helping out the other person.
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Old 09-20-2004, 04:27 PM   #6
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Do you remember your experience when reading it for the first time?
This chapter is one of the ones I remember most vividly reading for the first time. Like Frodo, I was amazed when Elrond does his "Well I remember the glory of the Elder days..." speech. I must have picked up 3018, 3rd Age somewhere because I was thinking along the lines of "Wait a minute! Just how old is he, anyway?" Another thing that originally confused me was sending it over the Sea. Send it to where? Then something was said about sending it back. Who would send it back? There are several of these hints in the chapter, though most of the history portions are more explained. As a person who had prior to this only read the Hobbit, it was these little things that added to the allusion of depth to the book, one of the many things that made feel it was "fantastic" at the end, rather than just a good book that goes back on the shelf and is never read again. What made me smile, though, was Glóin's line "You were less tender to me!" when Legolas was explaining Gollum's care. It is a sense of connection that only readers of the Hobbit can really feel. Perhaps it was satisfaction at really understanding something that was going on that wasn't flat-out explained in the text.

It confuses me a little how people can skip this chapter. Several people I have talked to skimmed through it or just completely skipped it, calling it boring. Granted, it is not very action packed, but very interesting nonetheless. There is a great deal of the subtle humor that Tolkien excells at, and the introductions and insights to characters such as Boromir are crucial. I do not understand how anyone can skip this chapter and understand what is happening later on.
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Old 09-20-2004, 05:02 PM   #7
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1420! Agrees whole-heartedly.

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There is a great deal of the subtle humor that Tolkien excells at, and the introductions and insights to characters such as Boromir are crucial. I do not understand how anyone can skip this chapter and understand what is happening later on.
I think you can skip the chapter and still catch on and understand what is going on later, but I agree with your point about Boromir, or really anybody. As we know, sometimes to figure out someone, could be within a few paragraphs, to figure out their thoughts, their personality, characteristics, and skipping a whole chapter, you will miss a lot of info about some ME characters, like Boromir. I think we figure out the real Boromir very well here, he wishes to take the ring and give it to the free lords, or use it for himself to supplant Sauron. And I think with that, It's arguable Boromir believed the ring could not corrupt a "righteous" person, like himself, or another lord. Skipping any part of the book, could make your opinion or view on certain matters/people be totally wrong. We get from this chapter right off the bat, Boromir is going to speak his mind, and maybe that's why I admire him the way I do, he speaks his mind. Another example would be him strongly not wanting to go to Moria, or him opposing entering Lorien, and then his little tustle with Aragorn, so we can always expect from Boromir his input on the matter, no matter how arrogant he seems, he speaks his mind.
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Old 09-21-2004, 01:30 PM   #8
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For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!’
‘I looked then & saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not so, but were woven of all colours, & if he moved they shimmered & changed hue so that the eye was bewildered.
‘ ‘I liked white better,’ I said.
‘White!’ he sneered. ‘It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. the white page can be overwritten, & the white light can be broken.’
‘In which case it is no longer white.’ said I. ‘And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is made of has left the path of wisdom.’
Morgoth was the first to ‘break the White Light, when he destroyed the Lamps, & the single, unbroken, light was lost to Middle earth. Then the Light was split into Gold & Silver, in the Two Trees, Telperion & Laurelin& was no longer constant, but fluctuated. When Morgoth killed the Trees, the Light was further broken, into the Silmarilli & the Sun & Moon. From then on, images of Light recur, but always in lesser forms - Glorfindel manifests the Light when he appears to Frodo as a being of Shining Light, driving back the darkness of the Ringwraiths, fragments of ‘unlight’, & also in the Phial of Galadriel, which drives back another manifestation of Darkness, Shelob.

But where does this desire to break the Light come from? What is the purpose of breaking it? Well, the more it is broken down, the weaker it gets, because the Light originally was One, single, whole. the movement is from holism to fragmentation. Also in language: the language of the Elves at Cuivienen was once the only tongue, but it too was broken & fragmented, & moved towards ‘darkness’. Quenya was the language of the Calaquendi, speakers of Light - their language was a language which was light made audible. But it was ‘superceeded’, by Sindarin, the Grey Elven tongue, which was replaced by Adunaic in Numenor, which became superceeded again by Westron, & at the extreme was Sauron’s Black Speech.

But why do it? In Saruman’s case why choose to break the Light? What’s in it for him? And why is gandalf’s suspicion aroused when Saruman calls himself Saruman of Many Colours, Saruman Ring-Maker?

The Rings were designed to control - but how? to break up the world into the ‘ten thousand things’, to divide & conquer.

Quote:
’Indeed in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him’ (Haldir)
It is this power of division, of estrangement that gives Sauron his real chance of winning victory. And its no coincidence that in the great single combats against the Darkness so many of those on the side of Light are golden haired - Fingolfin, Glorfindel, Galadriel (generally against Sauron & when she single handedly throws down Dol Guldur) & Eowyn. Its also no coincidence that women achieve some of the greatest victories - it is Luthien who defeats Sauron in single combat - the only being ever to do so alone, & who also overpowers Morgoth, sending him to sleep (probably the only moment of rest he ever knew - thanks to Jean Chasse at this year’s Oxonmoot for that insight), & we know that at one point Tolkien considered giving Luthien golden hair. So, it is women who have a power against the Darkness, & the most obvious example is Luthien herself. But why & how? Certainly women have a power against this tendency towards ‘fragmentation’. The absence of women seems to leave the men open to the Darkness, to division & breaking. Women are the Light bearers, & where the Light shines the Darkness loses its strength. Look at the family of the Stewards of Gondor in LotR - it starts to fall apart when Finduilas dies. And the women seem to need this role - it seems to be the role Eowyn has taken on herself in Rohan, & once Theoden is healed by Gandalf, freed from the influence of Saruman & Wormtongue, she seems to feel she has no role, is not needed to hold things together. So, women seem to be the power against fragmentation, against breaking down, against the darkness itself. Certainly it seems that (as other’s have pointed out, that perhaps the single most powerful thing in Aragorn’s life, the thing that enables him to resist the lure of the Ring, is Arwen’s love for him -if he takes the Ring he will lose Arwen, & we could suppose the same is the case with Sam & Rosie.

Both Sauron in Barad Dur & Saruman in Isengard (& even Bilbo & Frodo in Bag End) live intensely ‘male’ lifestyles, & so are tempted more by the power of breaking & fragmentation. It seems the more focussed men are on the masculine things, the more susceptibel men are to the power of darkness - perhaps the reason LotR focusses on male characters - because men are the ones at risk of breaking the Light in search of power. Women in the Legendarium seem to be the source of healing, of eros, & so are not so easily seduced by what the Ring offers. Of course, Galadriel seems to be the exception to this - yet her mother name was Nerwen (manmaiden).

(All that mostly inspired by Flieger’s ‘Splintered Light’ & Chausse’s talk ‘The Power of Females in Arda’ at Oxonmoot 2004).
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