LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 04 - A Journey in the Dark

[Boromir88]

Davem, thanks for providing us with the word origins of peregrin and Pippin. Tolkien does seem to use common words to give description, or information about his characters. A quick example would be the word sylvan, which means a "forested areas, arcadian." Hence, Silvan Elves.

SpM I never really thought about Pippin like that before. Now, it makes me wonder if Pippin's curiosity stopped a whole lot of "bad" from happening. It makes me wonder, if Pippin's viewing of the palantir sped up Gandalf leaving Rohan for Minas Tirith. We have Gandalf and everyone sort of lounging around in Rohan, just getting done with war, and Saruman, and if Pippin hadn't of looked in the palantir, who knows, maybe Gandalf wouldn't have been in such haste to get to Minas Tirith. But, I will save that part of the convo when the time is right .

[Encaitare]

As Esty said, Merry is more of a doer, while Pippin is more of an instigator, even though he doesn't intend to be. Pippin seems to get things rolling, and Merry helps finish them off in the end. I suppose the best example (or the best that I can think of, anyway) would be Pippin's looking in the Palantir causing Gandalf and Pippin's arrival at Minas Tirith, thus beginning the action there, and then Merry eventually reaching the city and helping to finish things off by aiding in the slaying of the Witch-King.

Not sure if that was entirely relevant to the chapter... *sidles off quietly*

[davem]

Just a last couple of thoughts on this chapter - first Holly. This is a tree with a lot of symbolism. As an evergreen it symbolised everlasting life; in Christian belief it was associated with the Crown of Thorns, with the berries symbolising the drops of blood. It was also used as a barrier to keep out natural & unnatural enemies. It was believed that no evil could pass a barrier or gateway of holly. So its quite symbolic that the Elves planted holly trees at the doorway to Moria, & also quite significant, given what is to happen, that they are thrown down (much to Gandalf's regret).

The second thing (maybe this is me reading too much into the story) is that the Moria episode begins with Frodo being grabbed by the ankle by the Watcher, & ends with Gandalf being 'grabbed' round the knees by the Balrog's whip & pulled into the depths - almost as if someone is to be taken by evil, & Gandalf has substituted himself for Frodo - 'Greater love hath no man than this: that he lay down his life for his friends'.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Sorry for being quite late. Two chapters late, to be specific.

But these thoughts must be said. Be free, my words!

Gandalf's flowchart.

I should have discussed Gandalf's reason for the passage of Moria in the previous chapter, but it seems better to put them here, as most of my quotes come from this chapter.

There are two levels to Gandalf’s reasoning, whether be it choice of Ringfinder, Ringbearer, or a proper path.

I. The Immediate

[Gandalf: ]To do that I used in my waking mind only such means as were allowed to me, doing what lay to my hand according to such reasons as I had. (UT III 3)

The quote seems pretty self-explanatory, but I’ll add a comment anyway. Every decision Gandalf makes has a reason that is sufficient for him, however it may seem to anyone else. (Case in point: why need a stolider breed in a hobbit going on an adventure, or why bring that hobbit at all? Those are my personal doubts, and before you barrage me with answers, we’ll move on to the next.)

II. Higher Guidance

To Gandalf the far-off memories of a journey long before were now of little help, but even in the gloom and despite all the windings of the road he knew whither he wished to go; and he did not falter as long as there was a path that led toward his goal. (LotR II 4 – emphasis mine)

[Aragorn: ]He will not go astray—if there is any path to find. He has led us here against our fears, but he will lead us out again, at whatever cost to himself. (ibid)

Here in the modern times we call such things luck, or fate, or intuition. But in Middle-earth it is something else. From such trivial task as choosing the right path through Moria to such major decisions as choosing to march to Morannon, Gandalf remained faithful to the One that put him on this mission, knowing that this “fool’s” quest to Mt. Doom (and indeed, his entire quest in Middle-earth) would be finished by his master, accepting any limitations as a part of his decision to trust higher guidance (as we will see in the next chapter). We may not know the reason for his actions (perhaps even he himself does not, at times) but we need not have one. Hey, after all, they worked, didn’t they?

Pippin and the Atani

Once, as part of a reply to Fordim’s “Paired Characters in LotR” thread, I tried to determine whether Merry and Pippin’s link to Rohan and Gondor, respectively, has a deeper significance. I ended up not posting it because I lacked the sufficient proof to make it stand. But now I know my research has not been all in vain. Whee!

Pippin’s “flirtation” with the darkness mirror’s Men’s (specifically, the Atani's) dealing with the darkness at large. At first, it was out of innocence; hey, he didn’t know what was in the well! The same can be said of Men. Morgoth came and seduced them to darkness while they were still new to the world.

Then the second was out of defiance. He wanted a look at the palantír, and he was gonna get it himself. Now tell me: doesn’t this remind you of a certain golden king? Wanted a taste of that immortal land, sent an army to take it? Now here is where it gets stickier: as a result of the Downfall, Elendil and his sons ended up where they were needed. Horse ride to Minas Tirith, anyone?

Some Comments

1.

So from the group of 9, we'll call it a "loose friendship", not really strong, and as you say it just seems one despair after another. It breaks, and out pops out, smaller, stronger bonds, between the fellowship members. (Boromir88)

. . . shared fear wasn’t something to overcome. It was the mutual support system that turned people of disparate backgrounds and intellects and interests into a single bonded organism . . . It was what made a whole greater than the sum of its parts (Op-Center: Mirror Image)

At first, these people had their own reasons for joining the Fellowship. Boromir and Aragorn were off to Minas Tirith. Sam, Merry, and Pippin still think of this as a hobbit walking-party. In a word, the Fellowship was unglued.

For a moment, during the Warg attack, they became united. They all feared the attackers, and that forced them to aim for one thing. But as the fears subsided, they disintegrated again. Once again, it was a fear (of Moria this time) that forced them together again. Clearly, this Fellowship would not go far without fear to bind them, but they couldn’t do their mission if they kept focusing on an immediate fear.

After the breaking, they all became bound by some shared fear. The Three Hunters feared for Merry and Pippin. Merry and Pippin feared the Orcs (who can blame them?) Frodo and Sam feared the deadly effect of the Ring on the rest of the Companions. Later their old fears subsided but new ones took their place. Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli feared for Rohan, then Gondor. Merry and Pippin feared Isengard, then Merry (with Éowyn) feared for Théoden, while Pippin (with Beregond) feared for Faramir. Their shared fears progressed from the immediate to something worthy of the quest.

Of course, their bond didn’t remain fear forever (case in point: Legolas and Gimli) but it was due to the fears they shared that they were knit together more closely than anything else. And more quickly, might I add.

2.

Uh, Fordim . . .

. . . Boromir’s sentiment is rather dismissive of Gimli — is he classing the Dwarf as one of “the little folk” or is he pointedly not seeking his opinion? (Fordim)

Gimli already voiced his opinion. He was the first to speak up.

[Břicho]

I am currently reading the Lord of the Rings to my girlfriend, and this is the chapter we've just finished, so I'll write about it now...over two years after the last post...

What struck me at this last reading was how "disunited" the Fellowship is after their first near-disaster of the snow. They are beginning to bicker amoung themselves; Gandalf seems short-tempered and he and Aragorn seem to be a bit quarrelsome with each other--though Aragorn does seem to constantly defer to Gandalf; Merry and Pippin (at the gate) openly seem to doubt Gandalf(Why doesn't Gandalf do something quick?); Gandalf mock-threatens taht he's going to bash Pippin's head upon the stone-wall; Boromir voices his opposing opinion strongly; Sam angrily resists the abandonment of Bill.
Somehow this strikes me as quite realistic: they ARE under a lot of stress; they DID almost freeze to death the night before; they were attacked by vicious, supernatural wolves; they haven't had much sleep; they are "footsore and tired" and generally creeped out by the oily mere.

This discordant quality and clashes of personality are somewhat dulled down by the horror at the gate and the subsequent march into the ruins and the hardhships it holds. Again, you see it after Pippin's disastrous folly at the Well. Gandalf growls at him and tells him to throw himself in next time.
A bit later, Gandalf speaks kindly to him and tells him to go to sleep.
Pippin overhears him muttering "I know what's the matter with me. I need smoke!"
I wonder if this isn't somehow an echo of Tolkien(the smoker)'s own occasional impatience with his own children--it was somehow beautiful to me to see Gandalf doubting not only his way in the Mines, or his decision in bringing the Ring(and the others) there, but his own rather grumpy attitude brought about by his dependency on smoke!

(I guess this has already been written about on this thread!)

Upon first reading I think that I thought and hoped the "tom-tapping" might have been the missing dwarves--but somehow knew that it wasn't.

The Mithril lecture is another fine example of Tolkien expanding the imaginary world and giving it depth and history.



I think that this chapter, along with a half-dozen others of hte LOTR is an example of some of the finest descriptive, atmosphere-building writing in the book. The far-off echoes of the signal-hammer is quite scary.

[alatar]

It's funny that it never struck me as odd before (maybe it did), but reading about the wolves/wargs, I now find it odd that they disappear by morning's light. After reading this thread (and davem's various explanations), I guess others find them odd as well. Some thoughts:

• Why do they wargs disappear at dawn, yet are physical enough to be slain by real weapons?

• Why do the Hounds of Sauron wait until it is almost light to attack?

• Gandalf is concerned on Caradhas about starting a fire. When he finally does, he states that he has written 'Gandalf is here' for all to see. Why then does he torch every tree in the ring when the wargs attack, as surely this says, 'Gandalf is now here' for all to see?

• To me, the "Hounds of Sauron" echoes the 'hounds of Hell,' though I'm not sure where that phrase arises (I know that it appears in Vincent Price's monologue in Michael Jackson's song "Thriller," but somehow I'm not sure that that counts). And it would have to be Sauron, as no other enemy quite compares (i.e. "Go back, Hounds of Sandyman!")

• Why are there no other examples of disappearing organics in Middle Earth? Or, as stated, are these creatures like Sauron, who, at the drowning of Númenor, leaves his body behind? One wonders if these creatures current best form were wargs, what options were then available when/if they reincarnated ("Oy! The Aardvarks of Sauron are upon us!")

On another note, this is a wonderful chapter with my favorite, Gandalf, guiding the Fellowship through the dark with nary a misstep.