Andreth and Adanel

[Child of the 7th Age]

Andreth and Adanel are unique figures in the Legendarium. They are the two true wise women who appear in Morgoth's Ring. Andreth was a descendent of the House of Beor, and the daughter of Boromir. She was unwed. Adanel was of the House of Hador, but had married into the House of Beor through her husband Belemir. Tolkien says of Andreth: "She was wise in thought ad learned in the lore of Men and their histories; for which reason the Eldar called her Saelind, 'Wise-heart'.

Tolkien apparently assumed the existence of a number of other wise women at least in the First Age, since he gives us the following quote:

... Andreth was in full vigour, being not yet 50 (48). She was unwed as was not uncommon for Wise-women of Men.

Another example is this:

Of the Wise some were women, and they were greatly esteemed among Men, especially for their knowledge of the legends of ancient days.

We know about Adanel through her Tale which reflects on the origins of evil or the fall of mankind. Our knowledge of Andreth comes from the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth where the two debated many points on the different paths of Elves and Men, the nature of the shadow, and the fact that the final destiny of Man lay beyond Arda. We also know of her deep love for Finrod's brother, and how that love could never be, to the everlasting grief of both parties. Andreth and her love is, to my mind, one of the most poignant unwritten tales of the Legendarium. It is impossible to read the Athrabeth without being struck both by her wisdom and depths of sorrow.

It is also my understanding that both of these tales were only written in the final years of Tolkien's life. Why? Why was there no figure comparable to Andreth or Adanel to enrich the pages of the LotR?

The Fourth Age was to be the coming of the dominion of Man. Yet, nowhere is a wise-woman to be seen. Is there some reason such figures were known in the First Age, but then totally disappeared? Are there any other women in Tolkien's writings whom you would describe as a "wise-woman"? The closest comparable figure in LotR seems to be Galadriel. How strange it is to me that on the edge of the dominion of man the most compelling woman who vaguely fits this mold should be an Elf!

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Well, there is Ioreth - her wisdom is rather small-scale, slightly marred by her talkativeness, perhaps, yet she does make an important contribution to the story.

[lindil]

I would hazard 2 points 1 internal to the story and another due to JRRT himself.

first, I think Arwen would take on this roll,as mother of/to the Dunedain but we do not see it spelled out.

The other point is that it may well be that JRRT himself had to mature into the being who conceived this. One reason I am so hopefull to see a New Silmarillion is because I see so much more maturity, depth and beauty in the post LotR writings. Dispite their unfinished and often contradictory content, they are imo the height of the Legendarium.

Athrabeth, Laws and Customs, Osanwe-KEnta, Shibboleth, MEn and Dwarves [ containing the Druedain], aldarion and Erendis, the final work on the Hurin/Turin saga, all of these show a mastery that imo JRRT was just begining to acquire in the LotR. It only is hinted at in the Silm as we have it today, you really have to dig through HoME 10-12 and UT.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Thank you both for your comments.

Estelyn --

Ioreth does contribute to the story, but she does not have the same respect from either Tolkien or the reader which Andreth and Adanel do. Still, she does have a role to play as an "older" mortal woman.

Lindil --

Perhaps you are correct about Arwen. I initially had difficulty seeing her in this role because of how she responded at Aragorn's death. But, now that I think on it, Andreth herself had multiple questions and much bitterness regarding the fate of man, so such a response does not in itself exclude Arwen. Still there is a difference in Arwen's situation. Having lived so long among the Elven kin, she would necessarily have had more time to learn the lore. For Andreth and Adanel, on the other hand, life was both more fleeting and treasured. Their choices in life seem more poignant because of this, at least to me.

Regarding your comments on how Tolkien matured as a writer, I heartily agree. I find many of the later writings very precious. I wish that CT had not felt so ambivalent about the "philosophical and religious" issues that many of these reflect. Hopefully, the revised Silm will include Andreth, at least as an appendix.

Is there another possibility as well though? The earliest houses of the Edain, certainly that of Beor, seemed in some respects much closer to the Elven kin (and to some of the Valar) than those in later ages. Is it possible that this drop in "wise-women" may have been paralleled by a corresponding drop in "wise-men" as well. In other words, there may have been a general drop in wisdom and lore among Men, of which the women were but one example. For example, can the later ages replicate a Tuor or an Earendil or a Beren, any more than an Andreth or Adanel? I say this even knowing the glory of Numenor and its early kings. But, to me, they do not touch the First Age.

The one later figure who seems to qualify in this ancient mode is Aragorn himself who was raised by an Elf and who had intimate ties with a Maia. It's interesting that he is given the ring of Barahir which again emphasizes his connections with the House of Beor and the Edain of the First Age.

I'm uncertain if this makes sense, but I did wonder about it.

sharon

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[lindil]

Good points Sharon.

Men of the stature of Beren and Tuor and Beor and co?

I would put few in that category.

Amandil, Elendil and almost Isildur.

Eorl is no lightweight saving Gondor once and then again by extension.

We really do not know much of the kings of Gondor or Arnor/Arthedain to be able to speak of character, but of Numenor I think we can say that they lost the wise-woman tradition and were an increasingly unbalanced society.

I guess Ioreth in her own small way is the distant descendant of Andreth.

Of course we only see Arwen at the begining and end of her Reign, but I have no doubt that she did all she could to raise the level of the lore and wisdom and snsitivity of the Gondorian ladies auxillary fellowship to heights never before or since reached.

She could teach classical Elven singing, Osanwe, Mithril sewing [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] , Elven and Valinorean Lore, Lembas making [prob the first time men would make it w/ a near Eldarin potency]and maybe even the cordial of Imladris. She was after all the grand-daughter of Earendil and Galadriel come to live among the Men of the West.

Her very presence must have been amazing.

" But I say to you King of the Numenoreans, not tillnow have i understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of men then it is bitter to receive.... then she said farewell to Eldarion and to her daughters and to all whom she had loved; and passed away to the land of Lorien and dwelt there alone.

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[HerenIstarion]

Aragorn's mother may apply for such a role, I guess

[mark12_30]

Sharon,

Give Eowyn time. She's only just put down her sword. And rather than a hindrance to her wisdom, her particular husband may be a help to it.

Eh, I'd better add a smilie! for the guys... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

--Helen

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Birdland]

Sharon - I'm with Heren. (Hey, I'm a poet and don't know it!) Gilraen might have assumed the role of a wise woman.

She spent many years in Rivendell, never remarried, and then seemed to withdraw from the world. She seemed to have offered much good advise to her son, and had some foreknowledge of her death. A very sad woman, but she seems to have achieved much wisdom in her life.

Sadly, like so many LoTR "moms", the details are sketchy. But a least Tolkien let her live!

[Bêthberry]

Sharon,

Your descriptions of Andreth and Adanel remain poignant even after a year.

One thought about the presence of wise women of great respect in the First Age but less so in later ages: Tolkien drew upon many ancient mythologies to write both LOTR and The Silmarillion. Many of those mythologies posit female goddesses or powerful female figures who are replaced or supplanted as the stories develop by male figures. And, as the mythologies become stories of the heroes rather than stories of the gods, female figures come to play a role in the passage of the hero rather than play the role of hero/ine themselves.

Just a suggestion.

Bêthberry

[Finwe]

Looking at Galadriel's life is an excellent way to discover the change in the role of women in Middle-earth. Initially, in the First Age, she was one of the active heroes, but as time went on, she assumed a more "motherly" role, if I may be so bold. She began to nurture her surroundings rather than try to actively change them, although that could have also had to do with the changing role of the Elves.

In the same way, goddesses changed in the mythologies that Tolkien got his ideas from. Some goddesses had three-fold aspects where that change is apparent. For example, the great Mother Goddess is depicted as having three aspects: The Maiden, The Mother, and The Crone. As the Maiden, she takes on an active role, as the Mother, she takes on a nurturing role, and as the Crone, she takes on a destructive role. In that sense, female figures do change.

[Mithadan]

Another wise woman was alluded to by Tolkien and she did live in the Third Age. Malbeth the Seer. She gave Arvedui Last-King his name predicting that if his claim to the throne of Gondor brought fruit a great power would arise, but if Gondor rejected him, Arvedui would be the last king of the North Kingdom. She also predicted the coming of Aragorn and delivered the prophecy of the Witch King's death.

I also agree that Gilraen showed great foresight. Her story resembles that of Feanor's mother. Both Gilraen and Feanor gave birth to one child only and both predicted their children were bound for greatness.

[Bêthberry]

Both Gilraen and Feanor gave birth to one child only and both predicted their children were bound for greatness.

Many mothers, Mithadan, and some fathers, predict their children are bound for greatness. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I wouldn't really include Malbeth as a women in the Third Age--certainly not as a significant character, which is what Child is arguing here. The sole reference in LOTR (using the Index here) is to lines which Aragorn recites. The import is not about her as a character. Malbeth is not given any degree of characterization. Rather, the reference functions simply as a handy plot device to explain why Aragorn chooses the Paths of the Dead.

And this very handiness is what, I think, enbables The Downs to have its own Malbeth the Seer. Oh, Ridicule, there is thy sting.

[Findegil]

If Malbeth is a women at all (I was ever under the impresion that Malbeth was man), than we can of course include her in the list of wise women of the third age. Adanel had nor role what so ever in the tale of the first age, and we do never meet here in dirctly in any story, but she is included as one of the wise women. So why not Malbeth?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Bêthberry]

Because the brief reference to Malbeth does not come close to creating this kind of readerly response, which Child has described for Andreth and Adanel:

"...' Andreth was in full vigour, being not yet 50 (48). She was unwed as was not uncommon for Wise-women of Men.'

Another example is this:

' Of the Wise some were women, and they were greatly esteemed among Men, especially for their knowledge of the legends of ancient days.'

We know about Adanel through her Tale which reflects on the origins of evil or the fall of mankind. Our knowledge of Andreth comes from the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth where the two debated many points on the different paths of Elves and Men, the nature of the shadow, and the fact that the final destiny of Man lay beyond Arda. We also know of her deep love for Finrod's brother, and how that love could never be, to the everlasting grief of both parties. Andreth and her love is, to my mind, one of the most poignant unwritten tales of the Legendarium. It is impossible to read the Athrabeth without being struck both by her wisdom and depths of sorrow.

The allusion is a plot device rather than an exploration of character. A qualitative as well as quantitative difference, IMHO.

Respectfully,
Bethberry

[ October 08, 2003: Message edited by: Bêthberry ]

[lindil]

Mithadan, where did your idea of a female Malbeth come from? Linguistic?

Like Findegil I too have always assumed [ based on no evidence other than the vast propensity of male characters to female in JRRT's writings I suppose] Malbeth to be a he.

[Bêthberry]

I wouldn't be surprised, All, if Mithadan was just trying to have one on us.

The Encyclopedia of Arda refers to Malbeth as a male, race Man.

[Finwe]

If Malbeth was a woman, then she would have been referred to as a "Seeress" rather than a "Seer." I think you've probably been misled by the ending "-eth" which appears on many female names, unless you've really pulled one over our eyes.

[mark12_30]

What surprised me about Andreth was her bitterness and anger. That's usually not a trait associated with wisdom, not biblically at any rate.

[Finwe]

Andreth had a right to be bitter. The Elf that she loved, Aegnor, had seemingly "led her on" and left her to fight in the North. Finrod told her that Aegnor had indeed loved her, but he put his duty above his love, and realized that their love wouldn't have really gone anywhere. Andreth probably realized that, but subconsciously, she was still hurt.

[HerenIstarion]

Quite an interesting turn. I too always presumed Malbeth to be a man. Now I've made a quick search, and found that Malbeth is never referred to as he or she whatsoever. (If I'm correct in my calculations, Malbeth is only mentioned two times in LoTR, and besides only in HoME VIII). But I stll tend to presume Malbeth to be a man, since:

a) otherwise he would have been referred to as seeress (i believe)
b) the other 'seers' to be met in Tolkien's works (except creatures of non-human origin)(that is, Tar-Palantir, Michael Ramer and Edwin Errol) are all men

[Arothir]

This is not a woman, but a hobbit. Isn't there someone who wrote,"Reams of good advice for more than half a century?"

I can't remember the name.

[Finwe]

Arothir, Malbeth was most definitely of the race of Men, not a Hobbit. I really have no idea where you got that delusion from.

The name of the Hobbit who "wrote reams of good advice" is Dora Baggins, Frodo's aunt. The exact quote from the Fellowship of the Ring is:

For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large waste-paper basket. Dora was Drogo's sister and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century.

[Child of the 7th Age]

These questions still intrigue me, and I am curious to see if anyone else can throw light on this.

Bump...

As to Malbeth the seeress, I have considerable doubt.