The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-15-2004, 01:39 PM   #1
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
This subject seems to get more complicated the more you look into it

The closest mythological ‘echo’ to Boromir’s horn I can find is the Gjallarhorn (Clangorous Horn) of Heimdall. Heimdall is the god who guards the rainbow bridge, Bifrost, to prevent the invasion of the frost giants. ‘The Gjallarhorn could be heard throughout all the levels of heaven, earth & the otherworld. It will summon all the gods to battle when the Ragnarok dawns’ (Matthews, The Aquarian Guide to British & Irish Mythology’). ‘When this comes to pass, Heimdallr stands forth & blows lustily on Gjallarhorn to turn out all the gods, who fall in together’ (Branston, ‘Gods of the North’).

There’s also Roland’s horn, Olivant, which he won from the giant, Jutumundus. ‘When he was attacked by the Saracens at Roncevalles he sounded it to give Charlemagne notice of his danger. At the third blast is cracked in two, but it was so loud that birds fell dead & the whole Saracen army was panic struck’ (Brewer’s Dictionary of Phrase & Fable).

Back to Tolkien’s world: we seem to have various kinds of ‘magical’ object - swords, Palantiri, cloaks of Lorien, The Standard of Arwen, hithlain, etc, & then there’s Miruvor & Lembas.

They seem to work in different ways: the swords - Sting, Orcrist & Glamdring, glow blue at the edges when orcs are near, but they don’t have to be activated - it seems to be an innate reaction of the weapons, whoever wields them, & they also induce fear in the orcs who encounter them - is this simply due to their reputation, or is there some psychological or spiritual power at work too? And how, exactly, do they work? Is it that in some way the swords ‘register’ the presence of the orcs & respond - & is there some ‘awareness’ within the swords?

The naming of weapons was commonplace in the ancient world - Arthur’s sword, excalibur is best known, of course, but he also had a spear, called ‘Ron’, & a ship, Prydwen, which he used in his assault on the Otherworld, (as told in the poem, Preiddu Annwn). This ‘naming’ seems important, as if by naming the weapon one gives it a power & a personality of its own, so that it becomes a kind of ‘ally’ in the battle. Its certainly of the utmost significance that when Narsil is reforged it is no longer called Narsil, but renamed Anduril. It isn’t simply put back together, it is ‘reborn’ as something else.

The Palantiri seem to work at the command of the operator’s will, & don’t need to be ‘invoked’ - & neither do the Silmaril’s - they shine, they blaze forth, almost of their own will (sentience again?). The staffs of the wizards seem to be channels for the power of their owners, yet to break a wizard’s staff seems to be symbolic of breaking his power, r at least of removing his ability to act, his authority.

Arwen’s Standard also seems to have some innate power, which doesn’t require invoking. So do the elven cloaks (whose broooches don’t fall ‘idly’.) Galadiel’s Mirror doesn’t seem to require a ‘spell’ to make it work, yet Galadriel tells the hobbits that she can ‘command’ it to show many things’.

Then we have the Phial - when Frodo holds it up in Shelob’s Lair it begins to blaze before he cries to Earendel, but its only after Sam has called out to Elbereth that it glows forth again - yet Tolkien says its

Quote:
As if his indomitable spirit had set its potency in motion
so ‘that it blazed suddenly like a white torch in his hand’.

Then there are the Rings - The One seems to have a mind & will - but is this its own, or Sauron’s? And do the Elven rings also have their own will?

Miruvor & Lembas seem to have a ‘power’ to strengthen not only the body but also the will & ‘spirit’ of those who ingest them, but how?

I can’t find any explanation of how objects are infused with magical power, or how they will work for some & not for others - how can Lembas sustaing Frodo & Sam, but choke Gollum? Is its ‘power’ selective - does it decide who it will sustain & who it won’t? Probably not, but that means that its power is dependent on who eats it - so must the eater be in a certain ‘spiritual’ state before he can benefit from it? If so, then it must work differently fromn the elven swords, which glow blue in the presence of orcs, whoever is holding them - & the Palantiri, it seems, will work for any individual whose will is strong enough, no matter their moral or spiritual state - Sauron can use one, & the Silmarils shine even in Morgoth’s crown.

Then there is the power of natural places - the Old Forest seems to have a power of its own, so does Caradras - where does this power come from - the Elves taught the Trees to ‘speak’ (ie made them ‘self-conscious’) - did they do the same to the land itself? If Sauron can control the storms in the Mountains of Shadow, it seems that Galadriel also has some control over the elements, even in Mordor:

Quote:
’There now, Mr Frodo, its you that’s talking of water this time!’ said Sam. ‘If only the Lady could see us or hear us, I’d say to her: ‘Your Ladyship, all we want is light & water: just clean water & plain daylight , better than any jewels, begging your padon.’ But its a long way to Lorien.’
Whether its down to Galadriel or not, when they do find water later on:

Quote:
Sam sprang towards it. ‘If I ever see the Lady again, I will tell her!’ he cried. ‘Light & now water!’
Is this a ‘spell’ Galadriel has cast, or a Word of Command she has spoken, or is it ‘elvish magic’? How can the elements be controlled? Are they in some way ‘alive’? Or is it possible to bring them to life - on a small scale in metal, glass, cloth, & on a large scale in terms of whole environments? How is it that the earth does not forget the elves if once they have dwelt there? Can something unconscious, something ‘dead’, have memory?

It seems that there is a kind of innate consciousness in the stuff of Arda, which can be roused by those with the ability - it can be awakened & ‘persuaded’ (or controlled) by those with power, to obey their will.

Its been said that there isn’t much ‘magic’ performed in Middle earth - certainly in comparison with other fantasy novels, where magic is wielded with ease by magicians, so much so that it really does become a case of deus ex machina - & all the more unconvincing for that - there isn’t much blatant ‘practical magic’; but ‘magic’ seems to suffuse the very suff of Arda.

Of course, that doesn’t explain what, exactly, it is.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2004, 01:50 PM   #2
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,521
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420!

Very nice post Davem (as usual) and some really interesting points. It's going to take some time for me to get my thoughts together and some more answers but I will say I agree with you on the "wizard's staff." The breaking of the staff does seem important, now I don't think the "staff" is the Istari's power, the Istari's power is within himself. The Staff is just the necessary weapon to, as you say, "channel" their powers, or to "use" their powers. We see Gandalf has to go to Galadriel and get a new staff and again with Saruman, Gandalf breaks his staff. Even with Saruman's staff broken though, he can still be dangerous, he still has that persuasive, powerful voice, so he still has his powers, but he can't perform the "magic of command or spell casting" without his staff. Those are my thoughts for now.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2004, 02:13 PM   #3
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
Fordim Hedgethistle has been trapped in the Barrow!
My sense of magic in Middle-Earth is that it is a concept that exists in the attribution rather than in the performance. That is, there are certain phenomena in M-E that to many of the peoples in it are inexplicable or wondrous, and so they call it magic. Like a stone-age hunter suddenly confronted with an airplane or antibiotics, these things seem magical while they are explicable to those who know more about them. The same for magical lands: what if that same stone age hunter were a desert nomad and he suddenly found himself in the arctic, or Amazonia??

The way I like to think about the magical items, moments, places and persons in M-E is through analogy with our modern way of controlling and ordering the world: technology. Elves have a technique that they use in making rope which means that it comes untied when you need it to. This is perfectly sensible and normal to them but unknown to Sam, who calls it 'magic'. In the same manner, Sauron knows how to make the One Ring; his precise technique and motivation are different, but the process is similar -- he has a technique that is unknown to others, with the result that it appears magical.

This works for objects that have beem made in such a fashion that appear magical. When we see spells being cast, I think about it the same way. The analogy I would use here is someone completely ignorant of the internal combustion engine watching a competent mechanic at work. The mechanic goes through a series of very strange actions and rituals that we cannot decipher, moving around parts and laying hands upon things that confoud us, and in the end, the engine comes to life. Magic!

When we then come to use that object -- like Frodo with the Phial -- it responds to us and to our direction (I make the car go where I want it to) but it appears as a magical thing: how is it that this large object is moving from point A to point B simply because I move this wheel and press that pedal??

The difference, obviously, is the sense of wonderment. A phial that glows in the presence of evil is something so alien and new to our experience that the wonderment of it is immediatly perceived as magical. We do not have any idea what kind or technique of art could produce such an effect, so we imagine that there is 'something' behind the phenomenon. Galdariel, however, I am sure understands how it works -- she is the mechanic who could explain the technique whereby the light of the Star is captured in the phial. Of course, like the mechanic who tried to explain the carbeurator (sp?) to me, she might find her audience incapable of understanding, and thus the technique is doomed to appear magical to me forever.

What has this to do with music? To the layperson (that is, someone not trained in music) music has this same nature and effect. I listen to a piece by Mozart and I am transported with wonderment by the effect of the whole. I do not consciously 'get' the combination of notes and their composition; the technique whereby the effect has been achieved is beyond me (and I want it to be) and I am immersed only in the phenomemon. To know the technique is not to lose the 'magic' but to understand it, and to become a magician oneself. Were I to spend a lifetime studying music I could begin to compose pieces of my own, but they would never be as wonderful as Mozart's, making me but a lowly mage to his wizardry.

Magic, like music, is something that may remain beyond the understanding of most individuals, but it is still of this world and within the bounds of human (or Elvish) understanding.
__________________
Scribbling scrabbling.
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2004, 02:30 PM   #4
Encaitare
Bittersweet Symphony
 
Encaitare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
Encaitare is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Magical Objects

Quote:
This ‘naming’ seems important, as if by naming the weapon one gives it a power & a personality of its own, so that it becomes a kind of ‘ally’ in the battle.
I remember reading or seeing somewhere that smiths gave names to the swords they made, and it was almost like the sword's destiny to fulfull the meaning or implications of its name. I cannot recall exactly where I got this information from... I can tell it will bother me all night, so I'll post the source when and if I think of it.

Quote:
Galadiel’s Mirror doesn’t seem to require a ‘spell’ to make it work, yet Galadriel tells the hobbits that she can ‘command’ it to show many things’.
As I said of Boromir's horn, it is probably the power behind the one using the mirror which makes it work. Galadriel is one of the most powerful individuals in Middle-earth, as well as the mirror's owner (creator?), so she can make it work for her -- perhaps like Sauron and the Ring? Only Galadriel can bend the Mirror to her will, and only Sauron can bend the Ring to his?. Frodo and Sam have no control over what they see in the Mirror. Perhaps this works similarly to the Ring? Galadriel says that Frodo cannot

Quote:
see all the others [Rings of power] and know the thoughts of those that wear them
because he has not tried to. She warns him:

Quote:
Do not try! It would destroy you ... Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger...
The excerpt goes on to speak more about the Rings, but the part above also seems to describe what is needed to use many magical objects, the Mirror, the Palantiri, and the Rings themselves. Whether the Mirror has the ability to destroy a person I am not sure, although perhaps the sheer number of images would drive a person to madness if he continued to use it but could not discriminate between the "things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be." If "even the wisest cannot always tell" between them, it's not possible to expect the average person to do so.

Also, Galadriel was with Frodo when he looked into the mirror and saw the Eye. He began to slip forward and it was only her gentle reminder, "Do not touch the water!" which brings him out of the trance-like state. It probably would have been quite unwise for Frodo to have tried to use the Mirror on his own -- perhaps impossible since Galadriel breathed on the water, as if to "activate" it.

Argh... I wish I could continue, but alas, I must depart. More later if brilliance strikes.
Encaitare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2004, 07:07 PM   #5
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,521
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420!

Quote:
As I said of Boromir's horn, it is probably the power behind the one using the mirror which makes it work. Galadriel is one of the most powerful individuals in Middle-earth, as well as the mirror's owner (creator?), so she can make it work for her -- perhaps like Sauron and the Ring? Only Galadriel can bend the Mirror to her will, and only Sauron can bend the Ring to his?.
Very interesting thought Encaitare, it makes sense, and I like it .
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2004, 07:37 AM   #6
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordim
My sense of magic in Middle-Earth is that it is a concept that exists in the attribution rather than in the performance. That is, there are certain phenomena in M-E that to many of the peoples in it are inexplicable or wondrous, and so they call it magic.
Ok; but is there a 'system' of magic in Middle earth? In other words, did Tolkien have a clear idea of how the magical objects worked, or did he simply make up each individual object, with its own rules of working, & just throw them into the story?

In other words, would it be possible to learn the theory behind Middle earth's magical system, or would that be impossible, because it has no 'structure', system of correspondences, magic words, rituals, etc, which together would form a coherent magico-mystical system?

To move on - take Turin's sword & helm. The sword speaks to him at the the end, judging his deeds, & condemning his actions. Is this a 'projection' on Turin's part - is he 'hearing' the voice of his own conscience 'speaking' to him from his sword? The alternative would seem to be that his sword can not only communicate audibly (just to him, or also to others?), but that it has the capacity for moral judgements. By asking it if it will slay him swiftly he also seems to be conceeding that it could choose not to, that it has the power to take his life or not - it will decide whether it will slay him or not - yet if it has the power of life or death over its victim, how can it place all the blame for the death of Beleg on Turin?

But if we go for the second option - the voice/power of life & death is merely a projection of Turin's own subconscious, then how do we account for the power of the Dragon Helm, which Tolkien states has definite innate powers - it will protect its wearer from wounds & death & has the power to intimidate his foes?

What power can infuse a self-conscious, ethical mind in a sword, & give a helmet the power to project a kind of 'force-field' around its wearer? And are this the same power which operates in Lembas, Silmarilli, & elven swords?

In other words, could we write a grimoire on the Complete Middle earth system of Magic, or are we just dealing with the old deus ex machina in various manifestations?
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2004, 09:36 AM   #7
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,460
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Can open (interesting) worms everywhere..

So much here now to absorb ... but with the wizard's staff, I have come to the conclusion (and this is coincidental rather than a contrived response to the topic title) that it is like a musician's instrument. It does not contain the wizard's power anymore than a violin say contains a great performer's musicality yet they are stymied in expressing that innate ability without the instrument - thus is Gandalf "crippled" at Orthanc.

However the staff in itself is not without importance ..it is not merely a stick and maybe would not be "merely" a stick in the hands of a "layman". I love music, but I was a feeble violinist . I remember that my teacher could make my "grotbox" fiddle sound fab but I could only produce slightly warmer toned squawks from her lovely Italian violin ..... .

I am afraid I don't have the "Letters" but I imagine the wizards and their staffs might well have been a subject of correspondence - does anyone know?


On a lighter note - it has just occured that there is a close resemblance between the "tools of the trade" of wizards and Conductors - the wand or baton or the staff .... perhaps it is jsut as well that Gandalf didn't "do a Lully" when he smote the bridge!!!
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2004, 01:58 PM   #8
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
is there a 'system' of magic in Middle earth? In other words, did Tolkien have a clear idea of how the magical objects worked, or did he simply make up each individual object, with its own rules of working, & just throw them into the story?
I don't think that there is any system of magic in Middle Earth, just as there is no clear system of belief. But I also don't think that Tolkien was entirely random in what he chose to portary as 'magical'. The spiritual is deliberately left obtuse - rightly so in my opinion as this is how these things are in the 'real' world. There could be no one 'grimoire' on the magic in Middle Earth, although there could easily be several!

There are quite a few intriguing links to the use of magic in Middle Earth, although I'm at quite a loss as to explaining if or why Tolkien would have known or even approved of these links. The ceremonial side of magic, which is reflected in the Wiccan world, is represented in Middle Earth. For example, we see wands being used in the staffs of Gandalf and Saruman. These are used to direct some kind of force, as they are by Wiccans, and when broken, this force cannot be channelled. Swords, which are seen as athmes in Wicca are also invested with spiritual properties. The cauldron can be seen refelected (sorry ) in Galadriel's mirror, which is obviously used for scrying.

For further illustration of these 'tools' of Wiccans, I can recommend going googling for an image of the Magician card of the Rider-Waite tarot pack, which clearly shows these.

Wish I could write some more, but I have raging toothache and haven't eaten for 11 hours - hopefully I'll feel more coherent either tomorrow or after I get the pliers out...
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:13 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.