Wizards' Pupils - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 10-22-2004, 08:05 AM

Interesting observations Elianna. Another one, and probably more recognizable, Gandalf's pupil, is a good man, and wins Eowyn's heart. Where Saruman's pupil, likes Eowyn, but Eowyn despises him. I think there is a definate connection Tolkien is trying to make, and the answer is Eowyn. She falls for the good guy, and eventhough there was a time when Theoden listened to Grima's counsel, Eowyn saw right through him

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Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-22-2004, 08:12 AM

It gets even more complicated: Aragorn is very much Gandalf's pupil (even though I don't think he is called that directly) and he not only attracts Eowyn, but also gets the girl he wants (Arwen -- remember her?).

Could it be that Gandalf 'teaches' love while Saruman 'teaches' desire? This might actually explain something of Eowyn: having been for so long under the indirect influence of Saruman (via Wormtongue and perhaps even Theoden) she has begun to learn the lesson of desire and this is what leads her toward Aragorn. It is up to that other wizard's pupil, Faramir, to teach her the lesson of love.

How would this work through (or over?) other of Gandalf's acquaintance? I think that it's pretty safe to say that Frodo learns the lesson of love from Gandalf in that he comes to show pity and mercy to Gollum, when his desire is to kill the creature. In the end, is not this at the heart of Frodo's struggle with the Ring -- the desire to have the Ring (Grima for Eowyn; Eowyn for Aragorn) versus the love of the Shire and of Sam (Aragorn for Arwen).

Perhaps I will have something more eloquent and coherent later.

10-22-2004, 08:12 AM	#2
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	It gets even more complicated: Aragorn is very much Gandalf's pupil (even though I don't think he is called that directly) and he not only attracts Eowyn, but also gets the girl he wants (Arwen -- remember her?). Could it be that Gandalf 'teaches' love while Saruman 'teaches' desire? This might actually explain something of Eowyn: having been for so long under the indirect influence of Saruman (via Wormtongue and perhaps even Theoden) she has begun to learn the lesson of desire and this is what leads her toward Aragorn. It is up to that other wizard's pupil, Faramir, to teach her the lesson of love. How would this work through (or over?) other of Gandalf's acquaintance? I think that it's pretty safe to say that Frodo learns the lesson of love from Gandalf in that he comes to show pity and mercy to Gollum, when his desire is to kill the creature. In the end, is not this at the heart of Frodo's struggle with the Ring -- the desire to have the Ring (Grima for Eowyn; Eowyn for Aragorn) versus the love of the Shire and of Sam (Aragorn for Arwen). Perhaps I will have something more eloquent and coherent later. __________________ Scribbling scrabbling. Last edited by Fordim Hedgethistle; 10-22-2004 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Questions need to end with question marks.

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10-22-2004, 08:05 AM	#1
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Interesting observations Elianna. Another one, and probably more recognizable, Gandalf's pupil, is a good man, and wins Eowyn's heart. Where Saruman's pupil, likes Eowyn, but Eowyn despises him. I think there is a definate connection Tolkien is trying to make, and the answer is Eowyn. She falls for the good guy, and eventhough there was a time when Theoden listened to Grima's counsel, Eowyn saw right through him .