LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 07 - The Mirror of Galadriel

[The Saucepan Man]

*Dodges apples hurled by Celeborn fans*

Originally Posted by Rimbaud

Such scenes and apologies can be staged by the artful.

A nice thought, Rim. But why stage the reception of the Fellowship thus?

Originally Posted by Imladris

Are not even the wise allowed to make mistakes?

But Celeborn is "corrected" by Galadriel not just once, but twice. And the first instance occurs practically the first time that he speaks. As for Elves' relationships with Dwarves, he starts out on the right foot with Gimli, expressing a hope that the lifting of Lorien's ban on Dwarves might signify a renewed friendship between their races. I take your point that he was beset with grief at Gandalf's fall. But Galadriel was able to keep her emotions under control sufficently to perceive the folly in his words.

Originally Posted by drigel

Maybe the wisest among Sindar appears thusly as Celeborn does when compared to a Noldorian princess born in Aman..?..?

Ah, but he is "accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth", not simply wisest of the Sindar.

Of course, I am simply expressing my own reaction to the character, and I am most certainly not denying the impression that others may have formed. But perhaps it is more interesting to consider why Tolkien depicts Celeborn in the manner that he does. I think that the inimitable Prof Hedgethistle put it very well when he said:

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Celeborn seems to me to be the perfect mate for Galadriel. He is steady and dependable where she is perilous. He is both lesser than her, but also greater: he does not provide counsel as wise as his wife, but neither is he a threat to take the Ring. He could, perhaps, be a vision of what will happen to Galadriel after the Fellowship leaves. Having forsaken her dynamic desire between good and evil, she will fade into a rather bland and uninteresting 'wise and all powerful figure of the woods' who, strangely, has lost much of her power to compel. She will indeed diminish. . .

But, for me, there is still a mismatch between his deeds and his depiction. Is this perhaps intentional on Tolkien's part?

[drigel]

Sauce I agree with your conclusion. But, "Wisest of all elves of ME" could still apply to 'Born, but IMO, or my paltry attempt at making my point was that, with the exception of Elrond or Cirdan, would there be any other elf who could come even close to an equivilent relative to G? On his own, as being one of the "wise", or as a leader - he would stand out. Perfect mate yes - most def - the necessary counterweight in the relationship.
Hey this is Galadriels chapter anyways - all this 'born talk is distracting my contemplation on the Lady.. meowwwww

[Imladris]

But Galadriel was able to keep her emotions under control sufficently to perceive the folly in his words.

Control of emotions does not equal wisdom.

Maybe there are different kinds of wisdom? Sort of like the brainy professor who has no sense and the student who has sense but isn't the brightest bulb...Sense and brains are both "smart" -- just different kinds of smart.

Thus maybe your definition of "wise" is not the definition Tolkien had in mind.

[Bêthberry]

Since we seem to be keeping very good track of the argument here I will forego, as Fordim has, to provide specific quotations from people's posts. Truly, this discussion is, I think, representative of how 'the sum is greater than the parts' and a true testament to what Downers can achieve!

I too am loathe to suggest that Galadriel is 'evil' or has nefarious motives. Perhaps it was my reference to the satan--and the lowercase 's' is very significant here--as the being who prompted or challenged people to seek their best. The lowercase 's' clearly represents an early use of the word which bears no meaning to one of evil intent who works to destroy or usurp the divine plan.

Yet this confusion of feminine intention is very much part and parcel of the literary tradition of strong women, sorceresses or witches. Here I want to make some comparison to the Arthurian legends, where in some versions there is a clear distinction between the good Viviane and the evil Morgan le Fey. It all depends upon which author one reads. And in later traditions, even Viviane is portrayed as a woman of power which menaces men.

I bring this up also because of another important point of comparison, which perhaps should more properly be considered in the previous chapter on Lothlorien, but it bears upon the comparison here between The Shire and Lothlorien.

There is a magical, enchanted forest resplendent at the heart of Arthurian legend and that forest is very much connoted with feminine spellcraft and water. I refer to Brocéliande (pron. brOsA / EaNd), first (I believe) mentioned in Chretien de Troyes' Yvain, but part of the Arthurian legends from Geoffrey of Monmouth to Tennyson.

Brocéliande was a magical forest in Brittany. It still exists today, known now as the Forest of Paimpont and part of the tourist industry of Bretagne. (Broceliande

It was here that Viviane fell in love with Merlin, used the magic he had taught her to return him to his youthful self and inspire in him a shared loved. Here too they are buried, where Viviane is said to have woven for him a barrow of air where he yet remains.

Brocélainde in legend is also the site of an enchanted spring. These waters do not foretell the future but are said to have the power to bring forth rain (Goldberry's forte).

For those who enjoy medieval texts, here is an online version of Chretien de Troyes' Yvain

The significance, it seems to me, of all these literary allusions lies in the cauldron of story which was Tolkien's imagination. No one in particular will account for Tolkien's specific forest realm yet all suggest the material he was working with. Even if he did dislike the French and object to the Arthurian legends as being in err for their explicit Christian references. (There's a letter reference to that, which I shall dig up and return with.)

[Lalwendë]

Celeborn could be considered 'wise' if you view him in the context of consort to an incredibly charismatic woman - her immense power and her effect on others seems to outshine his own wisdom. Although it does appear that he is not as wise as Galadriel, his wisdom may lie in other areas, e.g. those of learning, which are completely outshone by Galadriel's persona.

Thinking about figureheads in our own societies, there have been several examples where the charisma of the woman in the partnership has outshone that of the man, which ever one has held the 'real' power. The Duke of Edinburgh is said to be a very learned person, but is obviously outshone by his wife, as she is monarch (and he also shares the trait of saying the wrong thing with Celeborn ). This pattern was also displayed by Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. Margaret Thatcher (please bear with me, I'm not saying I agreed with her) was highly powerful, with almost uncanny abilities to control others, rather like Galadriel has, while her husband attracted ridicule from the media as being rather weak in comparison, despite being a successful businessman. In the partnership between Hilary and Bill Clinton, it was obviously Bill who had the real power, but Hilary's persona often outshone his.

Now I don't think that Tolkien was saying that Galadriel had in some way 'emasculated' the power of Celeborn, but I do think that with Galadriel he was showing his readers something of the nature of power as he perceived it, that charisma is very important. I think that Galadriel does have innate power, but she is clearly masterful at making an impression, in a magical, Elven way, in order to reinforce her own power.

I do agree with what Imladris says here:

Simply, my point is this: it must have taken great humility to apologize to a dwarf. Humility, to me, is a sign of wisdom -- probably one of the greatest forms of wisdom. Humility is contrary to pride, which has been a prominent vice in all of the "bad guys" -- and as such, pride was their downfall. To me, humility is astonishing so wise and great a lord. All in all though, we don't know enough about Celeborn to judge him on this little incident.

It is always the wiser person who is able to apologise.

Galadriel and Celeborn simply display different types of wisdom. His is quiet, and hers is charismatic. This could almost be contrasted, without insinuating anything about Galadriel, with the different types of power displayed by Saruman and Gandalf.

[davem]

Perhaps we can look at the roles of Galadriel & Celeborn - at least at the beginning of this chapter - in a different way.

What they seem to symbolise is 'Justice' & 'Mercy'. Celeborn is 'Justice' - he judges (quite fairly) each member of the Felowship - He says Gandalf has fallen from wisdom in confronting the Balrog alone. He then declares Gimli is at fault, at representative of his people.

Galadriel symbolises 'Mercy' - she offers compassion & understanding. From this perspective it is Celeborn, not Galadriel, who plays thee 'satan' role, playing Devil's Advocate. He states the 'facts', the case for the prosecution, while Galadriel supplies the defence. I think its wrong to judge Celeborn too harshly, or to criticise his actions. Clearly he & Galadriel play specific roles in the rule of Lorien. He is not simple or unlearned. 'Wisdom' is not always manifested in obvious ways. Without Galadriel the rule of Lorien would be unduly harsh & perhaps cruel, without Celeborn it may have been too weak & overly compassionate. Justice untempered by Mercy leads to injustice, but so does Merce untempered by Justice. They provide a balance.

There is always a danger in attributing human values, motives & behaviour to non-human beings. In the context of LotR alone the events of this chapter have a deeper significance.

The Company have entered the Earthly Paradise, literally Heaven on Earth. But we could also say they have entered the 'Workhouse' & Celeborn & Galadriel represent the First &Second 'voices' in the Niggle story. They are to be judged as to their motives in their spiritual Quest.

All the members of the Company are to be tested by their encounter - they are all on trial - & the 'personal' aspects of the judges are not really relevant - actually as judges Celeborn & Galadriel are 'above' judgement themselves. The 'defendants are on trial, not the judges. It is irrelevant what Galadriel's motives are - so Boromir is wrong in attempting to judge her - he misses the point.

Of course, at the end, Frodo turns the test back on Galadriel by offering her the Ring, but at this point that's valid she has set herself up as judge, & has to be able to justify her actions, & show that she herself is not above the Law. That she succeeds & passes that test proves that she is qualified to judge others. Frodo, however, is tested most, because he has the greatest task & his failure would lead to ultimate defeat for all.

Perhaps this accounts for Galadriel's 'genderlessness' - her role is to be a judge of hearts & minds. By the end of the chapter certainly she has taken over the shared role she had with Celeborn. She is not a 'woman', but an Archetype, testing, questioning, the defendents, but in a real sense they will all judge themselves - or be given the opportunity to.

Leaving Lorien they leave the heart of Elvendom on Earth, they pass out of the Earthly Paradise & return to the world to act on what they have learned about themselves. Judgement will be passed on all of them by their actions. Frodo & Sam particularly have been confronted by their worst hopes & fears (mostly unconscious till they looked into the Mirror), & must now face the future in full knowledge of their situation. They have seen, as clearly as possible, what they face, what the real stakes are.

[Aiwendil]

Fordim wrote:

Ah yes, but then again, none of them is really "evil" -- it was Medieval and Renaissance commentators who couched the "witches" as being wicked women trying to defeat the noble men. In the original context (and in our own modern readings, I would suggest) these women come across far more as alternatives to the hero's quest.

Oh, I agree. They are not quite "evil". But they are not "good" either. Galadriel is. I don't think this invalidates your comparison, but it is an important and fundamental difference.

Bethberry wrote:

The significance, it seems to me, of all these literary allusions lies in the cauldron of story which was Tolkien's imagination. No one in particular will account for Tolkien's specific forest realm yet all suggest the material he was working with. Even if he did dislike the French and object to the Arthurian legends as being in err for their explicit Christian references.

He did dislike the Arthurian stuff and seems never to have forgiven the Norman invasion, it's true - but interestingly, "Broceliand" was an early form of what became "Beleriand". Christopher comments on the connection with Arthurian legend in HoMe III, but comes up with no explanation.

[Encaitare]

Wow -- this thread seems to have just expanded overnight.

I see we've moved towards matters of Celeborn, but I had a thought I'd like to throw out there.

Perhaps the reason Galadriel seems to be genderless is because of the way we first meet her:

Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord; and they were grave and beautiful. They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep gold, and the hait of the lord was of silver long and bright; but no sign of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes; for these were keen as lances in the starlight, and yet profound, the wells of deep memory.

From the moment we see her, she and Celeborn are described as having very similar characteristics (at least on the outside): Tolkien consistently uses "they" when describing their height, garb, eyes, and countenance. I also like davem's suggestion that Galadriel is

a judge of hearts & minds

and therefore must not show bias that gender can bring about.

While we're on the topic of Celeborn, I feel his humility and his willingness to admit that he is wrong does suggest a wisdom all his own -- not the wisdom of counsel as given by Elrond, and not the wisdom of Galadriel, which, as has been said, forces people to look within themselves and choose the right path. Rather, it is a more quiet sort of wisdom which is not always clear to see. He first speaks rashly due to the shock of Gandalf's death, but otherwise he is courteous, especially in his welcome to Gimli. A sign of the courtesy of Celeborn (and all Elves as is mentioned) is that he and Galadriel stand when the Fellowship arrives.

It seems that Celeborn (contrary to his movie persona!) is more of a speaker. He gives welcome and voices his opinion immediately. Even when what he says is incorrect, he does not hesitate. On the other hand, Galadriel is a thinker. She observes people first to understand them and their purposes -- note how Frodo sees that she "said no word but looked long upon his face" as Celeborn greeted the Fellowship. Combined with her ability to look into the minds of the Fellowship (is this an example of osanwe? I'm still not very familiar with the idea.), she can evaluate anyone she meets.

[Boromir88]

Davem:

Galadriel symbolises 'Mercy' - she offers compassion & understanding. From this perspective it is Celeborn, not Galadriel, who plays thee 'satan' role, playing Devil's Advocate. He states the 'facts', the case for the prosecution, while Galadriel supplies the defence. I think its wrong to judge Celeborn too harshly, or to criticise his actions.

First off, nice connection between the "justice" and "mercy," I think that is a definate idea. I also agree, that we shan't judge Celeborn so harshly. First off, if a dwarf was hitting on my wife, I would be someone annoyed as well. In fact, I think Celeborn handled the situation well, he was just silent. I would have laid down the smack, if you get my meaning.

He rose clumsily and bowed in dwarf fashionm saying: "yet more fair is the living land of Lorien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that like beneath the earth!"

There was silence. At length Celeborn spoke again...

I'd like to mention it's quite a statement, for a dwarf to hold Galadriel above all jewels, so we can only imagine how beautiful Galadriel appeared to Gimli.

Back to Celeborn...

"I did not know that your plight was so evil," he (Celeborn) said. "Let Gimli forget my harsh words: I spoke in the trouble of my heart. I will do what I can to aid you, each according to his wish and need, but especially that one of the little folk who bears the burden."

Celeborn apologizes to Gimli, and the next chapter gives the Fellowship the boats, to travel by, which is to the relief of Aragorn. So, in that way he has helped. It is rather curious how he said "I will do what I can to aid you, each according to his wish and need," but again, it's Galadriel that gives out the little goodies in the end. And it is Galadriel that truely knows what Aragorn desires, and awards him that desire, in chapters to come.

[Imladris]

It is rather curious how he said "I will do what I can to aid you, each according to his wish and need," but again, it's Galadriel that gives out the little goodies in the end. And it is Galadriel that truely knows what Aragorn desires, and awards him that desire, in chapters to come.

That doesn't mean that Celeborn didn't have anything to do with it...Like typical husband and wife, they decided to give them the gifts together, and Galadriel did the giving, even though they both "gave" to the Fellowship. Does that make sense? They both decided to do it, but Galadriel did the actual giving.

[The Saucepan Man]

Poor long-suffering Celeborn

[Bêthberry]

This chapter has inspired one of the longest threads for discussion in the Chapter by Chapter subforum! Fascinating.

Much as I do not wish to intrude upon the direction and tenor of the discussion, I would like to clarify a couple of points.

davem posted:
From this perspective it is Celeborn, not Galadriel, who plays thee 'satan' role, playing Devil's Advocate. He states the 'facts', the case for the prosecution, while Galadriel supplies the defence.

This was not, strictly speaking, my use of the 'satan' role. In fact, Devil's Advocate is quite the opposite from my use. In the Catholic Church, when people are being considered for sainthood, a long and ardulous process is now followed. A formal role is defined in the process, the role of the 'Devil's Advocate.' This person's job is to dig out the dirt, to disprove the evidence that the person is worthy of sainthood and that miracles have been legitimately ascribed to this person's intercession.

This is not what the 'satan' does. The original meaning of satan is a role rather than a person: that of an obedient servant (such as an angel of the Lord) who opposes human plans and desires. Perhaps the satan is sent to help people avoid worse harm. One of the clearest examples is the Book of Job where the satan persuades God to act against Job in order to prove Job's integrity and worthiness. It was this kind of testing I implied with Galadriel's vision into the heart of each member of the Fellowship, holding out to each what he most desired and letting each one determine for himself the right way to handle that desire. This is not the same thing as uncovering sin or error: it is a tempering of the steel of integrity in the fire of goodness.

Thus, while I admire the neatness of your argument, I think this dichotomy does not allow for the kind of power which I see Galadriel wielding. It is stunning, I think, that Tolkien turns this around on her with Frodo's offer of the Ring. This I regard as an example of Tolkien's perceptiveness and originality--what he brings new to the table of moral challenges.

I don't think there is an easy answer about the depiction of Celeborn. I think we must ultimately rely solely on LotR as Galadriel was invented for it and back written so to speak into The Silm. Who was it here--Child?--who pointed out that this is one of the few relationships in LotR which is not depicted as successful. Maybe we simply have to accept that Tolkien conceived of a very powerful 'goddess' or sorceress figure and this was his way of understanding the dynamics of such a woman. Jumping ahead, we know that the two do not stay together. Maybe we simply have to accept that this was a dynastic marriage and when the political context changed, so did the nature of the relationship.

Aiwendil, thank you for that reference to Beleriand and Broceliande from CT. However much Tolkien derived his name from that of Troyes, my sense of the enchanted forest in the chanson bears greater affinity to the descriptions of Lothlorien than to those of Beleriand.

EDIT: I just read Saucey's final word on Celeborn. Now, what's a picture worth?