Yet another call by me.

[Sharkû]

Rimbaud's advice is very good.
I have to say I cannot really see the point of this thread. There are many unnecessary things that can be brought into a discussion, and many of these would be detrimental. That does not warrant that a certain non-Tolkien topic should receive any other treatment than the others.

[Imladris]

The point of this thread is to ask people to stop interjecting in their posts/arguments non-Tolkien subjects with a biased slant. I suppose it is a call to keep arguments pure from personal bias.

Use non-Tolkien subjects as examples, but I ask that they please keep it free from personal opinion.

I used Harry Potter as an example because it is the most prominent one, in my opinion.

I really am truly sorry that I started a pointless thread and I humbly as that a mod/admin delete it if it is viewed as such. I mean that in a non-sarcastic way...

[Mithalwen]

Well since I have been quoted twice, I would like to put on record that I am actually a Harry Potter fan - I thought book 5 needed a good edit but I was up at the crack of dawn that 21st June to buy the wretched thing. The point that I was trying to make was that there is a different treatment of magic in the two books - magic is not used to repare houshold items or cook in Tolkien.......

If you regard that as an attack on Harry Potter then that is up to you. I am sure JK will cry all the way to the bank. I love Harry, but as it happens I do think Tolkien is in a different league. I also think that there are greater writers (though perhaps few greater storytellers or creative geniuses) than Tolkien - and I have said that on the downs and survived to tell the tale.

If the books are so good they will stand a little criticism ... if you feel they cannot stand up to criticism.. well go figure...... And if you think what I said is "blasting", then I think that is a distorted view.

It is natural to compare books to other books - I don't see why we should be censored to protect HP............

This will be a very bare board if we are forbidden personal opinions...

[Imladris]

If the books are so good they will stand a little criticism ... if you feel they cannot stand up to criticism.. well go figure......

This is a Tolkien forum...you were comparing Harry Potter to Tolkien on topics that weren't even devoted to it.

Critisize Harry Potter all you want -- I don't care (I've critisized it myself). Don't do it on a Tolkien forum.

I'm not saying, "Don't you dare touch the Harry Potter because it is teh awesomeness!!!!1111!!!" I am saying to keep Harry Potter or whatever else in it's own circles.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

ral to compare books to other books - I don't see why we should be censored to protect HP............

Originally Posted by Me

Is it okay to illustrate a point using Harry Potter? Yes...it is. But don't bring your own opinion into it.

For example: The Istari are not like the HP wizards.

[Sharkû]

Point is this is no place for personal opinions that don't have to do with Tolkien, and that's the whole point. As such, we do reserve the right to 'censor'. If I wasn't making a point, I would delete the two posts before mine here for being off topic.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Imladris

Is it okay to illustrate a point using Harry Potter? Yes...it is. But don't bring your own opinion into it.

For example: The Istari are not like the HP wizards.

I would say that it is hard to make this comparison, for example in commenting on the nature of the Istari, without going on and explaining why you think that they are not like the wizards in Harry Potter. Which would be opinion.

But I think that Imladris has identifed a point here. It is unfair for people to make gratuitous opinion-based criticism of Harry Potter (or other non-Tolkien material) when those who wish to defend it cannot do so without taking the thread further off-topic. And by gratuitous, I mean irrelevant to the topic at hand. If the criticism is relevant, then it should be possible to defend it by reference to the topic. If not then, as Rimbaud suggested, challenge the criticism by PM.

[Lalwendë]

First of all, Imladris does have a fair point, as many Tolkien fans do have a tendency to criticise the Harry Potter books quite vehemently, and I'm not excluding myself from this. I'm not embarrassed to say I enjoy the Harry Potter books and I can't fault the plotlines which keep me turning the pages (and I especially love the Ministry of Magic and the bad guys), but as a long time Tolkien obsessive, I do have a weird relationship with them. This manifests in an urge to be sceptical. I wonder how many other 'Downers do love those books but feel they must somehow criticise just to prove the point that Tolkien is the master. I know this is something I do quite often, although it has mainly been face to face, in duels of words with workmates.

This topic shows though, yet again, how text based discussions can sometimes not come across the way that they were intended; I'm sure we've all written e-mails that have come across in totally the wrong way, and this is a similar thing.

[Mithalwen]

My original posts have been taken out of context. They may have been "casual" illustrations but they were not gratuitous. The thread has been up for about a month. It is very Tolkien... I have never received so much rep. Read it and report if you feel it necessary. As someone else said thius is really not the place... butwhen I am attacked .... I will respond ....and that was an attack.

[Amanaduial the archer]

Are you entitled to your opinion? Definitely. Just...don't proclaim it on a board devoted to Tolkien please.

I disagree a little actually, Immy. Not that I am in favour of an all-out flame war against all things Potter, but it does relate to the context. For example, if some topic starts:

Hi, jst sayin tht, like, Harry Potter *drool* wizards are, like, soooo much betta thn the wizards in Lord of the rings,c os they dont actually use, like, proper magic. I mean, lord of the rings wizards don't even use magic.

Now, whilst this topic isn't really worth responding to, for the sake of the example, we must press on: in response to this, I think it would be acceptable to include some opinion of your own about Harry Potter itself - do not engage in a flame war, it does not help things! But then, this is a discussion forum - and discussion is all about exploring different viewpoints. Opinion generally helps, y'know

Oviously, Harry Potter is the other most popular fantasy/'magic' series which has been talked about in the last few years, especially being as the books do seem to have alot which is easy to compare, and as the films came into direct competition with each other: the two are easily comparable, and alot of people seem to have taken the opinion that sides must be taken rather than joining in one big sci-fest of magic (aww, harmony in all the geeky wizarding community (joking!*ducks flying objects*)) This is where the problem comes in: it can easily errupt into a slightly volatile subject from innocent intentions, where with other series it might not. For example, some time ago there was a topic comparing the trials of Frodo the Ring-bearer, and Will, the main character and bearer of the infamous Subtle Knife in Philip Pullman's 'His Dark Materials' trilogy. These two characters are really incredibly similar in the responsibilities they have to bear - but it was nowhere near as likely to errupt as, for example, if you compared Frodo's burden with the burden that Harry carries with the scar, his name, and his history. The topics have been discussed so often that they can very rapidly become repetitive to some participators and develop into 'my character's better than yours' flamewars with anti-maturity.

So I think that, no, opinion should be allowed - but keep it related, and don't descend into the murky depths of flame

("fairy Harry Potter karblasto wizards" - genius. I shall be storing that one up for later use )

[Bêthberry]

But I think that Imladris has identifed a point here. It is unfair for people to make gratuitous opinion-based criticism of Harry Potter (or other non-Tolkien material) when those who wish to defend it cannot do so without taking the thread further off-topic. And by gratuitous, I mean irrelevant to the topic at hand. If the criticism is relevant, then it should be possible to defend it by reference to the topic. If not then, as Rimbaud suggested, challenge the criticism by PM.

And let me say I think Saucepanman is on to something here. I, too, felt that there was some merit to Imladris's initial point, however polemically she expressed it. (She does love her polemics.)

The BarrowDowns prides itself on the quality of its discussion. That means, I think, fair analysis and comparisons, witty rejoinders and clever reparte. But if or when we resort to, as SpM says, "gratuitous" slams of other authors, whether it be Rowlings or Pullman or some other fantasy writer or modern, we foresake good quality discussion for silly and cheap rabble rousing, name calling in the hopes of making us "Tolkienites" feel smug or superior or some such aura of exclusivity. Ad hominem comments aren't us-- I really don't think that the Downs is about that kind of "put down".

So, yes, as Rim, Sharkey and SpM have all suggested, handle that with a PM or consider how the issue can be addressed in an on-topic manner.

Edit: cross posted with Lalwendë here.

[Evisse the Blue]

I also disagree with your call, Imladris. And this following suggestion seems out of place:

Originally Posted by Imladris

Critisize Harry Potter all you want -- I don't care (I've critisized it myself). Don't do it on a Tolkien forum.

Where else do you want HP criticized? On a HP forum? Certainly not. Where then? Maybe in relation to something it is similar with. This is not bashing and it's not done only to annoy you or other HP fans (which, I am too, btw). This is simply stating an opinion in order to prove a point, most of the times (as I've seen from the examples you provided). Nobody just starts a topic to say: This is why HP sucks and LOTR is way better!
One thing I do have a problem with is when someone brings religion into the discussion - this is when it all goes to hell, if you'll pardon the pun. LOTR+HP+ Religion = pointless thread.

LOL - how ironic. I followed the link that HP provided and found a post of yours, Imladris, (back then you hadn't read HP yet), but that didn't stop you from criticizing it, and I posted once or twice in defence of it. Haha! Excuse me while I have a good laugh - there's so few things that I can laugh about these days...