LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 08 - Farewell to Lórien

[Boromir88]

Phantom, you bring up some good points.

I'm not sure I agree that his desire was "irrational".

This is irrational-> expecting a hobbit to safely enter a heavily guarded land, travel for miles and miles without getting caught, and destroy a ring he could not willingly throw into his little fire at home.

Boromir's plan is irrational, but you are right that it's definately rational compared to the other plan, which is practically like suicide.

I agree with the first part and the last part, but I do not agree that he was "mentally, the weakest".

Possibly, he may not be the "weakest mentally." As we see Aragorn take on the role of Gandalf, he too becomes "mentally weak." When the proper chapters come, I will point out the quotes. But, these last closing chapters, he begins to doubt himself, and get down on himself for the decisions he made. Basically he blames himself for the whole problem that occurred (capturing of Merry and Pippin, death of Boromir, running off of Frodo), he goes through this tough period where he doubts himself.

Why? Because I'm weaker mentally? No. Because I'm strong- and I would believe that, despite the warning, my strength would be enough to do it. My cousin, on the other hand, is not used to doing things the way he pleases but used to following his elders and so would trust and obey the judgment of his elders.

Do you understand what I mean?

That makes sense, I think we can see that in Boromir's word's at the council of Elrond.

"I do not understand all this," he (Boromir) said. "Saruman is a traitor, but did he not have a glimpse of wisdom? Why do you speak ever of hiding and destroying? Why should we not think that the Great Ring has come into our hands to serve us in the very hour of our need? Wielding it the Free Lords of the Free may surely defeat the Enemy. That is what he most fears, I deem.
"The men of Gondor are valiant, and they will never submit, but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it forth and go forth to victory!"

You are right, I think Boromir doesn't believe it would be able to corrupt such a man as he, or one of these "free lords." He speaks of. A situation we can connect to this would be Denethor and the Palantir. Denethor didn't "view" the palantir because he was "mentally weak." He viewed it because he thought he had the strength to combat Sauron, now obviously he doesn't have the power of Sauron, so in time his "mind broke" because he lost the "battle" with Sauron, but it wasn't because he was mentally weak, nice point. I would go in further, but I'm afraid Esty will repremmand me, so maybe I can make it a thread of my own.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I'm not sure I agree that his desire was "irrational".

This is irrational-> expecting a hobbit to safely enter a heavily guarded land, travel for miles and miles without getting caught, and destroy a ring he could not willingly throw into his little fire at home.

To Boromir this idea seems much more irrational than attempting to use the Ring.

This is the basis upon which Boromir founds his belief that it is better to use the Ring against Sauron rather than walk into Sauron's back yard in an attempt to destroy it. I agree that this is a rational (albeit, as it turns out, misguided) belief. What I am labelling "irrational" is his desire to seize it at all costs (ie by means of an attack on the person whom he has sworn to defend). It is irrational because it is provoked not by rational thought, but by the corrupting influence of the Ring.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Boromir was strong, and a leader, and was used to ruling and having his judgments heard and obeyed. He thought that he could use the Ring safely because he was strong, and he certainly had more faith in his own strength than in the apparent "folly" of the quest.

I think that you misunderstand my use of the concept of mental weakness. I am not using it in the sense of "self-confident", which Boromir undoubtedly was. Rather, I am talking in terms of strength of will to resist the Ring's influence. It is in this respect that I would say that Boromir was, mentally, the weakest of the Company.

[Rimbaud]

And to augment SpM's point on that, it is not a particular criticism of Boromir that it is so. Of the Company, the Hobbits have an oft-discussed 'natural resistance', that although finite, was fairly evident. Aragorn is a special case, and 'less and more' of a man than Boromir, due to his lineage etc. Legolas and Gimli have a less natural desire for power than Boromir, so although perhaps the Dwarf would be subsumed by greed, it would be a different malaise to that which would have gripped the Gondorian. The Elves are written as possessing a greater 'moral fibre' in any case. In a way, I think the most dissent could come from the matter of Gandalf, who as a Maia one presumes would have had a strong resistance, that although it would eventually cave would hold out the longest... but think of his reaction in Bag End that once...

~Rim

[drigel]

I think the most dissent could come from the matter of Gandalf, who as a Maia one presumes would have had a strong resistance, that although it would eventually cave would hold out the longest... but think of his reaction in Bag End that once...

Rimbaud -
Or Sarumans for that matter - was he not the highest in his order? Was he not a Maia? I am not a Boromir defender by any means, I just suppose I have a different appreciation for the character. My point was that he did not succumb because of a personality flaw specific to him. He was def the most human out of the group - and with all the inherent strengths and weaknesses. The key in my mind was the leadership aspect. Consider:

Both Saruman and Boromir were leaders. They both were on "the front line" if you will, dispatching orders, gathering and allocating resources and intelligence, making DECISIONS that affected others. Aragorn (during this time) was as well, but to a much smaller degree, mainly in the background (or in an underground resistance type of organization). His leadership was as yet unproven. So, IMO, his personal "stakes" were not as high as Boromirs. Plus, the blood flowing through Aragorns veins was much different than Boromirs, which I think implies that his strength of character had possibly a "more than human" advantage. Boromir was a captain, an heir to a Steward that - lets face it - was not looking like the best job in the world. I am sure he appreciated the effect it was having on his father. The ring was not the linchpin to the defeat of Sauron - it was the bloody tool that was used to bring so much death and misery to HIS people.

[mark12_30]

drigel: interesting.

And one point more: When Frodo asks Galadriel why he can't see the others when he has the ring on, she says (among other things) that he would have to train his will to the domination of others first.

Gandalf and Aragorn both try hard to 'persuade' before they dominate. And it seems to me both Strider and Gandalf are used to working solo. Gandalf is very persuasive; Strider (eg. at the Inn at Bree) is fairly persuasive, but not superbly so.

Boromir tries to be persuasive several times (during the counsel and during his fellowship experience) but he isn't particularly good at it-- I think because he's used to being obeyed. His will is already well-trained to the domination of others.

[drigel]

Making decisions\judgements that are life and death matters to people (at least in my mind - most assuredely by that point in time), and the dire situation that his country faces puts Boromir in a much different place than Aragorn. Its not a just a matter of weakness - its about experience, and perspective, and the weight of leadership and responcibility to those who you rule, human or Maia.

The monster i referred to at this level is much scarier than whats inside a woodland Elf Prince or a Dunadain Ranger in my mind.