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Old 11-16-2004, 06:29 PM   #1
The Saucepan Man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry
This argument assumes that Jackson understood the tragedy of the book but choose to follow the dictates of a different genre.
I am sure that Jackson has not spent as much time analysing every detail of the books in the way that some of us do here. I understand, however, that he has been a fan of the book since childhood, so he no doubt has given some thought to what it means to him. And it is clear to me from the films themselves that he understood many of the themes impicit in the books. The same goes for his co-writers, I should imagine. Whether he has read The Silmarillion or not, I cannot tell. But then again, I would speculate that only something like 10% of those who have read LotR have gone on to read Tolkien's other works (The Hobbit aside). Apart from those on this forum (which is a special case, let's face it), of those people that I know who have read LotR and The Hobbit (and there are a fair few), none have read The Silmarillion or any of the other works.


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What kind of reasons went into omitting the scouring of the Shire?
Largely for reasons of film pacing, as I understand it. Jackson is on record as having said that this is one of his favourite parts of the book. I too have great affection for this Chapter, but I can see the sense in omitting what would have been, in effect, a mini-story following the main climax.


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went into omitting the ends of Saruman and Grima?
This was filmed and originally intended for inclusion in the theatrical release (although at Orthanc, rather than in The Shire), but was omitted for reasons of timing. There are those who would say that it should have been included at the expense of other material, and I would be one of them, but Jackson obviously felt different.


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I think Son of Numenor is on to something which deserves to be discussed more than simply as an effect of movie making or of some readers' ignorance of TheSilm. Did Jackson miss the big picture?
Well, there are clearly a great many aspects of the book that were omitted for "film-making" reasons (whether that be timing, pacing, anticipated audience reaction or whatever). And I would be fairly confident in speculating that there are themes that Jackson (and his writing team) were aware of but omitted, either because there was not sufficient time to develop them or because they simply did not resonate with them. I can see the sense in focussing on a limited number of themes, given the time available to develop them. Rightly or wrongly, these films are first and foremost "action" films, and the intricate web of themes that Tolkien was able to weave in the book would have over-complicated them unnecessarily and hindered the action. In light of this, I personally feel that it is to Jackson's credit that he was able to include so many of Tolkien's themes, to capture the "spirit of Tolkien" as Christopher Lee put it (although I am fully aware that there are many who would disagree with me on this).

Did Jackson miss any of the themes of the book? Well, I am sure that he did. But then, so did I before I joined this site (despite having read the book a number of times, and long before the films came out).

As to the theme which is the subject of this thread though, I still think that it really goes without saying that Sauron's destruction will not represent an end to all evil forever, and that Galadriel's words can be interpreted accordingly.

One further thought (again). I do think that we are rather lucky to have had the Grey Havens scene, which I do see very much as a bittersweet moment (as far as both the Elves and Frodo are concerned). It is not really necessary in the context of the films, but Jackson nevertheless felt it sufficiently important to include. Of course, its omission would have been an anathema to us Tolkien fans, but I am sure that the films would still have been greatly enjoyed by the majority of those who went to see them, and just as successful, without it. Indeed, it might be argued that "the politics of Box-office movie-making" would dictate the omission of this scene. I have seen a number of reviews of RotK (the film) which criticise it for the length of its ending. As davem suggests, most film-goers would have expected it to end with Aragorn's coronation and the honouring of the Hobbits. That would certainly have been the more traditional "Hollywood" approach.
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:56 PM   #2
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I agree with Saucepan Man, given the fact that Peter Jackson is not one of our fellow BD pupils (or teachers for that matter), I'm sure that if one of us were to make the movie's we would spare no turmoil and no detail no matter how small or intricate.

However that not being the case, I am one to agree that PJ did a fine job, though the omitting of certain scenes did displease me. The movies made me cry and I daresay certain parts of the books did as well (especially the ending). The Trilogy provoked more emotion from me then the movies and I do enjoy both deeply.

Let me remind that if some of us had our way one movie alone would be some 6 hours long, a movie that long would definetly call for an intermission (in this day and age because we no longer have need for intermissions in 3 hour movies). So mainly because of timing and no doubt pressure from the higher ups
some of our most beloved scenes (no doubt some of PJ's most beloved as well)from the book have been omitted or cut from the movies.

Now back to the subject of whether Peter missed the point of Tolkien's work. My opinion is both yes and no. Yes, because I felt he didn't develope the characters as much as he could have, but keeping in the bounds of movie logic he did well enough.

Galadriel's words, to me, did not entail the whole annihilation of evil entirely but simply the evil of Sauron. Morgoth was mentioned by Legolas in the movie, so PJ if he hadn't read the Silm must still know something of him. Also keep in mind, I pay way to close attention to these things and also that I havn't seen RoTK in awhile and heres the grabber I don't even own the theatrical release; I'm waiting for EE.

I might not remember this line exactly so I won't quote it. Gandalf (movie) mentioned something to the fact that peace will last as long as the days of the King last, though a happy thought keep in mind that can't last forever, even when Elessar's Heir rules something could happen to him and if not he will eventually pass from Middle-Earth as well, and so on and so forth.

Evil will eventually grow again in the land, its an ever changing cycle of life, nothing can be totally good nothing so totally evil. As evil resides good will eventually come to destroy it, as good prevails evil will eventually come to crush it.

And a final note, at the Haven's in the movie, though the Elves are all smiles and la dee da, there is still a sadness in their tone and something in their eyes that betrays their smile. In my eyes its not a Fanciful splendour cruise to Neverland, its a bittersweet parting, an end of an age.

Please tell me (politely) if I've gone too far from the mark, its just my opinion, and I'm not nearly as intelligent as the rest of you, whose knowledge and awe inspiring-ness (made up a word there) is something to behold.
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Old 11-16-2004, 08:59 PM   #3
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This is turning into the kind of argument which hinges on whether we were happy or displeased with the movies, which I think misses the most interesting of the possibilities of this discussion. I am quite happy to recognise that many people enjoyed the movies. I don't think, however, that one's response to the movies hinges entirely on whether one is a dedicated Tolkien book reader or just someone who reads 'Tolkien lite.' I am not in particular a big fan of TheSilm. And for me, RotK was disappointing, in part, because it had so many 'concluding' scenes or climaxes. Aesthetically or emotionally, it was, for me, a mishmash. This does not lessen the enjoyment of many others. It merely reflects the different way I have of reading movies. Nor do I presume that there is one essential way of reading LotR, which Jackson missed. He is entitled, as are we all, to have his own particular interpretation.

SaucepanMan's argument is that most people do not read The Silm and so will not understand the theme from that point of view. This derives from Son of Numenor's first point which quotes from The Silm. However, I don't think the argument needs to be referred to The Silm at all. I think the question of the nature of evil can be analysed in LotR alone.

That said, I think it is quite legitimate to compare the theme of evil as portrayed in the movies with that in LotR. What are the differences in tone between the ending of the book and the ending of the movies? Rather than simply argue them away as deriving from some format of movie requirement, why don't we explore the different depictions of tragedy and of evil?
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Old 11-16-2004, 09:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry
This is turning into the kind of argument which hinges on whether we were happy or displeased with the movies, which I think misses the most interesting of the possibilities of this discussion.
I am not sure that any of the points made so far hinge on the participants' respective opinions of the films, although opinions have undoubtedly been expressed (not least by me ). My underlying point is that the extent to which Tolkien's themes have been included within the films has necessarily been influenced (and limited) by film-making considerations and the subjective interpretations of the film-makers.
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Old 11-16-2004, 09:56 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Bb

That said, I think it is quite legitimate to compare the theme of evil as portrayed in the movies with that in LotR. What are the differences in tone between the ending of the book and the ending of the movies? Rather than simply argue them away as deriving from some format of movie requirement, why don't we explore the different depictions of tragedy and of evil?
Ack -- this sounds like my English class.

But an interesting question nonetheless. Since it's my favorite chapter, I shall discuss the Scouring of the Shire. The ending of the book, complete with this separate little ending, is much more painful, but in the end it's almost that much rewarding. The hobbits return to their beloved Shire to find it a complete mess, and under the control of "Sharkey" and his ruffians. It's a severe blow for them; I can't find the quote I'm looking for for the life of me, but I believe it's Sam who says that it's the worst thing they've encountered yet (someone please correct me if I am wrong). We see that the evil that has spread can make it anywhere, that there is no entirely safe place -- this is the tragedy of the book's ending. Our small heroes do save their home, making them appreciated by their fellows. They get the respect and honor that they deserve.

Yet the movie depicts the Shire as a place that might be taken over, but only if the quest should fail, as Galadriel says when Frodo sees the mills and chimneys in the Mirror. It puts more at stake on the turnout of one single event, as if all evil and evil influences will simply disappear for a time if the Ring is destroyed. The quest is successful, and the hobbits return back to their picturesque homeland. The tragedy of the movie's ending was that after all they had done and sacrificed, the four hobbits were not recognized whatsoever by those back in the Shire, because no one even knew what was going on. The message here is that sometimes great deeds must go uncelebrated, and just because they are not recognized does not make them any less worthy, or make the heroes any less for it.
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Old 11-17-2004, 07:11 AM   #6
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Encaitare,

not sure what you mean by
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The tragedy of the movie's ending was that after all they had done and sacrificed, the four hobbits were not recognized whatsoever by those back in the Shire, because no one even knew what was going on.
Do you mean you believe PJ got this right, because that's what I think. let me explain.......

the movie showed (via the pumpkin scene) exactly what the book explains to us, that the hobbits were not celebrated in their country for their great deeds.

in the book they expelled saruman and the Men, but this, if anything, is what the Shire (by giving sam the mayorship) thanked the 4 hobbits for. Not for the destruction of the ring. Do we see anywhere in the end of the book where the hobbits even mention what their Quest was for? Frodo only tells the Cottons that Sam was now one of the Greats, and that was because Frodo was putting in a good word for Sam with Rosie!

PS jackson shows us, via a brilliant narration by Frodo in Bag End, the real melancholic feeling of the end of the books. every time I see this scene, I feel pangs of regret for Frodo, and a deep sadness for what he will have to give up. To me, as a movie goer who had read the books, this was clear. I'm not sure how clear this is to a non book reader, but hey, what do I care?????

PPS to me its boyens and walsh who were the real scriptwriters, who reigned back jackson when required, and were the main players behind the plot of the films.
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Old 11-17-2004, 10:53 AM   #7
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I shall try to clarify, Essex.

You're right, either way they're never fully appreciated for what they did, but at least in the book they are considered the saviors of the Shire. That's what I was getting at.
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Old 11-17-2004, 02:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bethberry
That said, I think it is quite legitimate to compare the theme of evil as portrayed in the movies with that in LotR. What are the differences in tone between the ending of the book and the ending of the movies? Rather than simply argue them away as deriving from some format of movie requirement, why don't we explore the different depictions of tragedy and of evil?
If there is a difference it seems to me that its that Jackson seems to see evil as an external force more than an internal drive. That's why for me in watching the movies what happens at the cracks of Doom seems wrong - in the book we can see it coming, because we've seen Frodo's inner battle going on & he himself coming more & more under the influence of the desires the Ring symbolises. In the movie, the Ring is simply an external force, so we don't get the sense of Frodo surrendering to something he wants, just of him being overwhelmed by something external to himself. When i read the book, I know that on some level Frodo has said 'Yes!' to what the Ring offers, that some part of him has consented to it. And in the end he is unable to forgive himself for that reason, & exiles himself almost as a punishment (I know other's don't read it that way). In the movie this doesn't come across. Movie Frodo is simply broken by an overwhelming but purely external force, so it makes little sense to me that he feels he has to leave.

Actually, I still don't get why movie Frodo has to leave at all - where's his guilt? What drives him away? The change the writers make in Frodo's words to Sam 'I tried to save the Shire' to We tried to save the Shire' says it all for me. Either they didn't get the point Tolkien was making at all, or they got it & decided it was too unpalatable a thing for a movie hero to say.
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