Those of Mortal Descent in the Undying Lands

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

It would seem to me a rather cruel fate to leave Frodo, Sam and Bilbo alive forever in Valinor since that would deny them their final reward of dying and passing on to the next stage of existence. Continued life, unending existence, is a curse: the Nazgul being the best example of this, and to a lesser extent Gollum. But even the Elves bear this out -- it's their 'immortal' tie to the physical world that dooms them to things like Feanor's oath and the 'long defeat'. Beings who have life eternal (in this world) are doomed to share this world's fate.

I would hope for much more than that as a final reward for the Ring-bearers!

(I am, however, convinced that Frodo was still alive when Sam arrived in the West, and they were reunited once more in this life, for a time.)

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Legolas

This is because Aragorn did not fully understand the situation - Arwen was a half-elf, and was given the right to choose her fate. When she chose to be mortal when her father left for Aman, she was making a permanent choice. There was no turning back for her.

I agree that Arwen was making a permament choice when she chose mortality. She could not simply sail to Valinor following Aragorn's death and reclaim her immortality.

Bur, assuming that there was a boat to take her and with the grace of the Valar, it would, I suppose, have been possible for her to sail to Valinor to see her father and mother one last time before she died the mortal death that she had chosen.

[Mithalwen]

I lost my original reply to this, the gist of which was that I thought that, particularly in the case of Bilbo and Frodo, the passing into the west was in order to enable them to make a "good death" and was a reflection of Tolkien's Catholicism. Bilbo's life has been unnaturally stretched by the ring whereas Frodo's has effectively been shortened. They are granted a spell in Aman to find peace and reconcile themselves mentally with their unusual lives. Frodo and Bilbo both go through stages of dying that patients with a terminal prognosis go through prematurely. If you look at this list you can see several paralels:

http://www.focusonals.com/developmen...nd_of_life.htm

IE They tidy up their legal affairs, pass on their story in the form of the red book, withdraw from their circle of friends (Bilbo, initially by going to RIvendell) and have reached a level of acceptance. In a sense for them, the West is a hospice. Bilbo's I think would be short, but Frodo I think might hold on for Sam ....

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I think I would like to point something out.

This adds to the first post, in that I also agree that in some form or another, the mortals who were accepted into Valinor gained immortality.

In every case in the Lord of the Rings of mortals given entrance to the Blessed Realm, that privilege was given to them by an immortal.

This is very easily recognizeable in Frodo's case.

Arwen literally gave him her immortality.

This was represented in the form of a symbol - the jewel that she gave him. She foresook her immortality, to remain in Middle Earth, and that left a slot open on the last cruise ship to Valinor, so to speak.

Now ... that was the case for Frodo. But it could be that this afforded all the Ringbearers with this chance to go.

I've heard somewhere (and this is very vague, and probably unsubstantiated) that Bilbo was able to go, because Thranduil foresook going into the west, and remained in Middle Earth, where his great store of wealth, rivaling those of the great elven lords in Middle Earth, in the elder days, was, content to stay.

He really thought Bilbo was an amazing fellow, and was the one who named him Elf Friend if I'm not wrong ... after Bilbo took such a huge step in solving the dilemma between Thorin and the people of the Desolation of Smaug, and smuggled the Arkenstone to them.

I have NO clue where I heard that. Maybe my old English teacher mentioned it.

But, that doesn't explain Sam, or Gimli. Although Tolkien made a point of saying that Gimli was a very special circumstance, and that no one had ever seen a friendship of the sort that he and Legolas had. (In a strictly platonic way, by the way).

[Legolas]

Immortality cannot be "given" to someone else. Not even Manwe, King of Arda, can give or take immortality; only Eru himself has the ability to change the fundamental kind (and he only did so twice - Luthien and Tuor). Thus, Frodo and company were to die in Aman:

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

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I've heard somewhere (and this is very vague, and probably unsubstantiated) that Bilbo was able to go, because Thranduil foresook going into the west,

Tolkien never said anything like this.

[Elven-Maiden]

Unfortunately I lost most of my Tolkien books in a rather unfortunate incident, but I seem to remember reading that in Valinor, a mortal being will die when they're ready to. Their normal life may be extended, or it may not, depending on whether they're ready to move on or no.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

[Maédhros]

I only post this just to have JRRT words in this interesting scenario:
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

Aman and Mortal Men
If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World, and therein the Eldar had health and lasting joy, what shall we say of Men? No Man has ever set foot in Aman, or at least none has ever returned thence; for the Valar forbade it. Why so? To the Númenóreans they said that they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright'.
Beyond these words we can but go in guess. Yet we may consider the matter so. The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda) and the length of their life-span. Even the Eldar in that respect remained unchanged.

Let us suppose then that the Valar had also admitted to Aman some of the Atani, and (so that we may consider a whole life of a Man in such a state) that 'mortal' children were there born, as were children of the Eldar. Then, even though in Aman, a mortal child would still grow to maturity in some twenty years of the Sun, and the natural span of its life, the period of the cohesion of hröa and fëa, would be no more than, say, 100 years. Not much more, even though his body would suffer no sickness or disorder in Aman, where no such evils existed. (unless Men brought these evils with them - as why should they not? Even the Eldar brought to the Blessed Realm some taint of the Shadow upon Arda in which they came into being.)
But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift-passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while all other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy with hope of endless years undimmed, he would rise and pass — even as upon Earth the grass may rise in spring and wither ere the winter. Then he would become filled with envy, deeming himself a victim of injustice, being denied the graces given to all other things. He would not value what he had, but feeling that he was among the least and most despised of all creatures, he would grow soon to contemn his manhood, and hate those more richly endowed. He would not escape the fear and sorrow of his swift mortality that is his lot upon Earth, in Arda Marred, but would be burdened by it unbearably to the loss of all delight.
But if any should ask: why could not in Aman the blessing of longevity be granted to him, as it was to the Eldar? This must be answered. Because this would bring joy to the Eldar, their nature being different from that of Men. The nature of an Elvish fëa was to endure the world to the end, and an Elvish ihroa was also longeval by nature; so that an Elvish fëa finding that its hroa endured with it, supporting its indwelling and remaining unwearied in bodily delight, would have increased and more lasting joy [sic]. Some indeed of the Eldar doubt that any special grace or blessing was accorded to them, other than admittance to Aman. For they hold that the failure of their hröar to endure in vitality unwearied as long as their fear - a process which was not observed until the later ages - is due to the Marring of Arda, and comes of the Shadow, and of the taint of Melkor that touches all the matter (or hröa) of Arda, if not indeed of all Ëa.
So that all that happened in Aman was that this weakness of the Elvish hröar did not develop in the health of Aman and the Light of the Trees.
But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also accorded to Men. What then? Would a great good be done to them? Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth. In the seventh part of a year a Man could be born and become full-grown, as swiftly as in Aman a bird would hatch and fly from the nest. But then it would not wither or age but would endure in vigour and in the delight of bodily living. But what of that Man's fëa? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Aman nor by the will of Manwë himself. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar.
Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the things of Arda. And he would not willingly leave Aman, for that would mean rapid death, and he would have to be thrust forth with violence. But if he remained in Aman, what should he come to, ere Arda were at last fulfilled and he found release? Either his fëa would be wholly dominated by the hröa, and he would become more like a beast, though one tormented within. Or else, if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa, Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hroa, in full life, would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hroa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy.
Now these things are but matters of thought, and might-have-beens; for Eru and the Valar under Him have not permitted Men as they are to dwell in Aman. Yet at least it may be seen that Men in Aman would not escape the dread of death, but would have it in greater degree and for long ages. And moreover, it seems probable that death itself, either in agony or horror, would with Men enter into Aman itself.

Like I said, the consequences had already been mentioned in the thread before, but this is way more specific.