**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[Findegil]

If we change Gelion to Duin Dhaer than a change from Saranathrad to Athrad D(h)aer would look strange from me. But that is only a matter of taste. Nevertheless I wold rather take Athrad i-Negyth. Harathrad is clearly older than Athrad Daer, thus Athrad D(h)aer or Athrad i-Negyth are the possible names. But we do not know if Dhaer or Daer is the later. If Daer is later we have to change Gelion to Duin Daer.

Concerning the "Lamp of Faëry": Unfinished Tales; part I: The first age; chapter 1: Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin; Note 2:

The blue-shining lamps of the Noldorin Elves are referred to elsewhere, though they do not appear in the published text of The Silmarillion. In earlier versions of the tale of Túrin Gwindor, the Elf of Nargothrond who escaped from Angband and was found by Beleg in the forest of Taur-nu-Fuin, possessed one of these lamps (it can be seen in my father's painting of that meeting, see Pictures by J. R. R. Tolkien, 1979, no.37); and it was the overturning and uncovering of Gwindor's lamp so that its light shone out that showed Turin the face of Beleg whom he had killed. In a note on the story of Gwindor they are called "Fëanorian lamps", of which the Noldor themselves did not know the secret; and they are there described as "crystals hung in a fine chain net, the crystals being ever shining with an inner blue radiance."

Thus "Lamp of Fëanor" could be a good change.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros wrote:

Gelion to Duin Dhaer.

I had missed this entirely. I suppose we must implement this, though I can tell you it will take some getting used to.

Yes, as I have read it now it is ambiguous as to which is which so I think that I would rather say dwarves of Nogrod.

Then we are agreed on this.

Findegil wrote:

Thus I can not look up the circumstances of its use, which I would like to know before we prupose a change. I am sure that the phrase was not often used even in TN. Thus I don't think it is wourth a discussion about a general change.

Agreed - we can discuss when it comes up the text.

Maedhros wrote:

Couldn't it be also Athrad Daer too?

It looks like we have three names among which it's very difficult to choose: Harathrad, Athrad D(h)aer, and Athrad i-Negyth. I'm not sure that the name "Athrad Daer" invalidates "Harathrad" - in fact, one could suppose that all three names were used, "South Ford", "Great Ford", and "Ford of the Dwarves". But that's baseless speculation. I suppose we must go with either Athrad D(h)aer or Athrad i-Negyth to be safe. But which? There's almost nothing to push us either way. However, since it was "Athrad Daer" that was written against "Harathrad", and thus "Athrad D(h)aer" shows up more times than "Athrad i-Negyth" I would say that perhaps we should go with it.

That leaves us with the "Dhaer" vs. "Daer" question, and I can see no way of guessing which is later. Perhaps "Daer", since it shows up in "Duin Daer" as well, while "Dhaer" only appears once? I don't know.

I think we are agreed on the storyline, though. I do want to look it over when I get a chance, but I can think of no further problems at the moment.

[Findegil]

Now I am myself the one to re-open the storyline discussion.
Aiwendil wrote:

FD-SL-22: I wonder about using Mablung here. In the 77 he defends the Silmaril to the last, but as I recall I could find no precedent whatsoever for this in any of JRRT's writings.

Your feeling that Mablung was problematic was very good, but you look in the wrong place for the reason of it. I had a similar feeling when I prepared the text of the expanded Version but did only search all the sources for the dad of Thingol to find the reason. Now at last I found it, when I re-read Ælfwine and Dírhaval for the post in the Myths Transformed thread.

Here begins that tale which Ælfwine made from the Húrinien: which is the longest of all the lays of Beleriand now held in memory in Eressëa. But it is said there that, though made in Elvish speech and using much Elvish lore (especially of Doriath), this lay was the work of a Mannish poet, Dírhavel, who lived at the Havens in the days of Earendel and there gathered all the tidings and lore that he could of the House of Hador, whether among Men or Elves, remnants and fugitives of Dorlómin, of Nargothrond, or of Doriath. From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Androg who was in the outlaw-band of Turin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh. Otherwise all that time between the flight of Túrin from Doriath and his coming to Nargothrond, and Túrin's deeds in those days, would have remained hidden, save the little that was remembered among the people of Nargothrond concerning such matters as Gwindor or Túrin ever revealed. In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear. This lay was all that Dírhavel ever made, but it was prized by the Elves and remembered by them. Dírhavel they say perished in the last raid of the sons of Fëanor upon the Havens. …

This is the first version of the introduction. In the second one it is Ælfwine himself not a later editor that does write and in that second version neither Mablung nor Andvír are mentioned. The question is now if we consider the information about Mablung (and Andróg) still valid after the perspective of the telling of the inroduction has changed the text.
After we have removed Ælfwine from our version we can not use either version of the introduction without any change, but it might be much easier to rework the first one than the second one. But that is not the issue here.

The question here is:
Do we consider Mablung alive in the days of Dírhaval (as he is named in the second version) or not? If we consider him alive, do we still see him as a part of the fatal hunting party of Thingol?

As a matter of fact I see even more need to change the details of Thingols death: to avoid another failure with Mablung I made in intens search and have read all scenes were he is named in The History of Middle-Earth. By that search I discoverde the follwing Note applied to the sentence of Thingols death beside Mablung in TN:

Yet in the end were they all fordone, and Mablung and the king fell side by side -- but Naugladur it was who swept off the head of Tinwelint after he was dead, for living he dared not so near to his bright sword or the axe of Mablung.

Against this sentence my father wrote a direction that the story was to be that the Nauglafring caught in the bushes and held the king.

Now we can consider the note to mean that Naugladur did sweep of Thingols head while he was alive but rendered helpless by the acrused Necklace clinging to some bushes or we considere it only a further detail of his death by someone else. But this is clearly a discussion about textual details that we will do in the thread "Ruin of Doriath - Attack on Menegroth"

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

After providing the facts in the last post, I will, after some thought, give away my oppinion about Mablung and the hunt:
For me the information that Mablung did survie to speak with Dírhaval at the Haevens is valid. With that it would be easiest to skip him from the hunt completly. But the easiest way is not the one I would go. He is Thingols chief thane and by his deads in the original Wolf-hunt I would find it strange if he would not have been there when the celebration hunt was so special in that year. Thus I think, if we let him take part in the hunt but mention that he was not with the small company that was lured outside the girdle we only make explicit what is to be expacted.

Looking at the note, I think that Naugaldur killed Thingol when he was bound by the Necklace. It was Tolkiens last (formulated) idea and it would make Melians and Berens acrusing Naugladur as a morderer more just. In addition it fits very well with the cruse of the Nauglamír and its effect in the fight of Beren and Naugladur.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

The question here is:
Do we consider Mablung alive in the days of Dírhaval (as he is named in the second version) or not? If we consider him alive, do we still see him as a part of the fatal hunting party of Thingol?

I think that the simplest change would be not to introduce parragraph 35, as I intended to do in the Attack on Menegroth discussion. So that we can be vague about the fate of Mablung.

[Aiwendil]

The story in "Aelfwine and Dirhavel" 1 that Mablung survived and came to the mouths of Sirion certainly supercedes the story in TN. And we have no later evidence that the story reverted to the earlier one. So I would say that in our version Mablung must be supposed to survive and make it to the havens.

In view of the invalidation of the story of Mablung as told in TN, my first inclination is to take Findegil's easy way out and leave him out of the hunt completely.

[Maédhros]

So, we all agree on Mablung it seems. Then I think that we can move foward to the next section.

[Findegil]

Okay, so we will take Mablung out of the hunt completly. I will provide a subtitution text for the scene later on. Hopefuly before we start with section 3.

I agree with Maédhros that section is done so fare and that we should go on with "Outlaws in Menegroth".

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Can you explain me step by step Ufedhin was rejected?

Here is a passage from the Narn i-Chîn Húrin:

Therefore Beleg gladly became the guide of the wanderers, and he led them to a lodge where he dwelt at that time with other hunters, and there they were housed while a messenger went to Menegroth. And when word came back that Thingol and Melian would receive the son of Húrin and his guardians, Beleg led them by secret ways into the Hidden Kingdom.

The Girdle of Melian always seemed to me more as a labyrinth then a "force field".

Which led me to believe that a single Elf could guide the Dwarven army into Doriath following "Ariadne's thread".

Besides - why would the Dwarven army attack Doriath if they knew that it was protected by the Girdle? I would seem a bit idiotic.

[Findegil]

Ufedhin's rejection was not only conected to the gridle. Anyhow, if simple knowledge of a way through would have been enough to overcome its protection, the dwarves would not have needed any traitor, as they often had been welcomed guests in Menegroth.
Ufedhin was rejected because the majority of project members found it unprobable that there was a traitor from Doriath to the Dwarves at all.

I also imagin the gridle like to a Labyrinth. But more in the vain of the Old Forest east of the Shire: All ways you could find would lead you out again sooner or later. Only if you were a welcomed guest a way would open for you to go in, and even then it would probably be safer to have a guide.

And in thinking in that direction explains way many members found Ufedhin would not have been succesfull: Coming back with bad intetion against Doriath would lead the trees to force you out again equaly if you had know a former way in or not.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Perhaps. But why would the Dwarves decide to attack a kingdom which they knew was impenetrable?

[Arvegil145]

Also - the matter of Gereth and Evranin (and Nielthi).

You said that they are not valid Sindarin, but could they still be kept nonetheless? I hate losing material from the texts.

[Findegil]

On the one hand, it is not clear that Dwarves did know that a bad intention against the inhabitants would mean that they could not enter Doriath. And the implicit theory behind the Dwarven attack, was that they did know that Thingol would be at that time on his hunt to celebrate the Charcharoth-hunt and they would try and succed to lure him beyond his borders. Once they killed Thingol they tried (probably because they thought that he was responsible for it) and found that the girdle was removed and use that fact.

Gereth and Evranin and Nielthi: To include them would mean to change a fact in the Sindarin tongue as it was when Tolkien last worked on it. Our rules are strongly against it.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Hi all! This is my first post here, and I know I am quiiiite a bit late to the party! That being said, I just want to say, I am absolutely floored by the work that's been done on this chapter in particular, as out of the confusion and chaos has been created a flowing narrative that tells a compelling and vastly improved version of the story in the QS77.

My humble thoughts are almost certainly unwarranted, but I did have a few of them while reading through the text. Most of them are in regards to specific deletions or changes in the texts, as every story decision makes 100% sense to me.

The first one is a relatively minor point, as I assume it is a simple slip.

RD-EX-24 TN Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, the king was minded to hearken, and he bade gather it up and cast it into the stream before the gates. Yet even so he might not shake off its spell, and he said to himself: ‘First will I gaze my last upon its loveliness ere I fling it from me for ever.’ Therefore he let wash it clean of its stains of blood in clear waters, and display it before him. Now such mighty heaps of gold have never since been gathered in one place;

At that point, the version where the outlaws are killed has been rejected, so the gold would have no blood on it.

The second is also a minor point where I was confused:

RD-EX-31 <QS77 In those days the Dwarves still came on their journeys into Beleriand from their mansions in Ered Lindon, and passing over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] at {Sarn }Athrad[ Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}, they travelled the ancient road to Doriath; for their skill in the working of metal and stone was very great, and there was much need of their craft in the halls of Menegroth. But they came now no longer in small parties as aforetime, but in great companies well armed for their protection in the perilous lands between Aros and {Gelion}[Duin Daer] RD-EX-32 {; and they dwelt in Menegroth at such times in chambers and smithies set apart for them}. At that{ very} time great craftsmen of Nogrod RD-EX-33 {were lately come}came into Doriath{; and}[ at] the King’s { therefore summoning them } summons, and he declared to them his desire>.

why are the Dwarves changed from being there to being summoned?

The next point is a very minor instance of awkward phrasing:

RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were more wondrous>.

"were more wondrous" than what? the previous treasure? the use of the comparative "more" here implies a comparison, but none is given. Maybe, "more wondrous than had been thought."

The next is a simple question I had about a name deletion. I know that many of the hastily mentioned Elvish characters had their names removed bc of linguistic issues, but in this passage:

RD-SL-19 <TN Now even as those aged ones sat in their dark halls and gnawed their beards, behold a sound of horns, and messengers were come from {Bodruith of the Indrafangs, a kindred of the Dwarves that dwelt in other realms}[Belegost].

why was Bodruith removed? Even if this name is not good Sindarin, it does not need to be. We know that the Dwarves took outer names in the language of the people near to their dwellings, and for Belegost this is Ossiriand, Celegrorm, and the lands of Eriador where Nandor and Men live. the name could easily be Nandorin, which would explain the phonetic similarity to Sindarin, while still allowing for an "impossible" Sindarin name form. To delete it anyway seems odd to me.

The next is a question regarding a theme in the Lost Tales that was abandoned largely in later writings:

RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth].

Is this in keeping with Tolkien's later views on the Dwarves? I know some were considered evil, but Thorin dwelt in the Ered Luin near the ruins of Nogrod and Belegost, and these Dwarves were never remotely in league with the Orcs.

The next is a simple grammatical point:

RD-EX-60 Now {is} [when] the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} [grew] faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} [sat] in her bower and foreboding {is} [was] in her heart and eyes.

the "when" in the first line is grammatically incorrect. Leaving it out fixes the sentence.

The next is a terminology that seems suspect to me in the context of the later legendarium:

RD-EX-67 <TN {and Auredhir was} And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his} [their] forefather Beren, and all loved {him} [them], yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinúviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>

I hardly think "Elwing the fairy" is fitting terminology for an Elf queen. Maybe Elwing the Fair?

The next is a minor question:

RD-EX-79 <TN {But} [And] the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on {for ever} above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now is the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none seek the treasure that {it}[Ascar] guards [near by] nor dare ever to cross the{ magic} stream [of Duin Daer] at that enchanted place.

the last bit describes a present state, when by the third age Duin Daer is long gone and the ford lost beneath the waves, as Lindon is not all of Ossiriand, unless my geography is mistaken.

That was everything I saw, besides a few minor spelling mistakes. I'm honestly still blown away by the amount of work this took, and the cohesion and near perfection of the final product. This is truly a testament to the love people have for these stories.