**The Return of the King Extended Edition**

[Turin]

Originally Posted by Tigerlily Gamgee

I, frankly, wasn't overly impressed with the EE.

Negatives:
~After all the build up, the Saruman scene didn't do it for me. I wanted more of the witty banter between Gandalf and Saruman, like in the books. The death was kinda cheesy too. I did, however, enjoy Bernard Hill's line delivery during this scene.
~The Gimli and Legolas drinking was cheesy and seemed out of place.
~Gimli tries to blow away the ghosts? Sometimes I think that too much "comic relief" is thrust upon poor Gimli.
~Why is Eowyn wandering the encampment with her helmet off... and so close to Theoden too? I would've loved to have seen her as Dernhelm, if that makes sense. Some great scenes were lost from the book.
~I liked the Houses of Healing scene with her and Faramir, but so much of it was lost... no mention of her being beautiful, no talk of Aragorn... no wedding
~I, personally, thought that The Mouth was kinda campy.

At last! Someone who agrees with me!

[Essex]

~I, personally, thought that The Mouth was kinda campy.

Campy?????

I thought he was the best, most 'frightening' monster in the whole trilogy.

If you saw the MoS down an alleyway, would your first impression be Campy? I don't think so! And I know what I would do in that situation. I'd run as fast as I could in the opposite direction, throwing women and children behind me!

(sorry, nicked that last line from Billy Connolly)

[Guinevere]

Originally posted by Turin:

My overall impression from the EE is that it doesn't reconcile many of my disappointments that I had with the theatrical version. In fact, it has rather deflated my (already deflating) enthusiasm for the Trilogy, in general.

I agree with everything that Turin wrote in post #15 !

About the dialogues being inconsitant: I think so too! My favourite parts in all the movies are the parts where Tolkien's original quotes are used. But, more often than not, these quotes are spoken by different persons and in different circumstances. It annoys me that the scriptwriters thought they could do better than Tolkien...

There are several things that puzzled me in the new scenes:
- Saruman tells Gandalf "What words of comfort did you give the halfling before you sent him to his doom?" This sounds like he knows about Frodo being sent to Mt.Doom with the Ring... but how would he know that, and Sauron doesn't ? Strange...
I enjoyed seeing and hearing Christopher Lee again, but the scene "didn't do it" for me either.

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...

- I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ? And why do they let them land calmly instead of shooting them before they have landed?
"Faramir's sacrifice" indeed. It's more stupid than desperate to ride in a broad line towards the orcs lying in wait for them, so as to offer them the most possible targets!

- the avalanche of skulls in the Paths of the Dead was exaggerated and seemed therefore rather ridiculous to me.
I was astonished to see that when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli emerge from the paths, the river with the corsair's ships is immediately below them. Well, at least that explains why they could afford to let the horses escape before entering the paths! But even if they take a shortcut and do not make for Pelargir, Anduin would still be quite a long way off, as is shown on the map on the DVD-cover!!
Overall, ME in the movies seems much, much smaller than in the books.
- I, too, was mystified by the smashed "Evenstar". But then, the whole thing about Arwen dying and her fate being tied to the Ring etc never seemed logical to me.
- the "Houses of Healing" disappointed me too. No Athelas, no "healing hands" no "calling back" the spirit and Faramir & Merry aren't healed by Aragorn. I guess they just didn't want Aragorn to have supernatural powers..

-The „Mouth of Sauron“ seemed more disgusting than frightening to me. And I was disappointed about the changed conversation. What was the use of thrusting Frodo’s shirt at Gandalf and telling him that he had died under torment ? It seemed much more effective to me as it was in the book, where he implies that Frodo is in Sauron’s power but alive – that way he could try to blackmail them.


Like Tigerlily Gamgee I liked many of the small scenes that she mentioned and that enhanced the characters.
- My favourite new scene is "Pippin, guard of the Citadel" where he speaks with Faramir and is told that the livery was his as a boy. It's so nice to see those two become friends, and explains why Pippin will do everything to safe Faramir.

- I liked the scene with Faramir and Eowyn - it was very well done, although it was way too short! I had been looking forward to that so much! However, if those two weren't given more time and speech together, it was better to leave it at that, and not to show any kiss or talk of wedding.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Campy?????

I thought he was the best, most 'frightening' monster in the whole trilogy.

If you saw the MoS down an alleyway, would your first impression be Campy? I don't think so! And I know what I would do in that situation. I'd run as fast as I could in the opposite direction, throwing women and children behind me!

It wasn't so much the way he looked, but the way he spoke. The trilogy has a huge lot of exaggerated "monster" voices, so to speak.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

For now, a few brief comments:

1) Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.

2) In the extended dvd, why did Legolas shoot Grima? Grima was in the
process of, successfully, whacking Saruman.

3) The voice of Saruman was still underplayed, Saruman was far too
high up, not on the balcony of Orthanc, and there was no confrontation/
temptation of others by his voice, and no express allusion to the power of
his voice.

4) And, while the Easter Egg wasn't as "surprising" as the first two, I am
zinking the German interviewer certainly sought to ask probing and
provocative questions of Elijah Wood.

[The Saucepan Man]

I bet you lot would all refer to a glass as half empty ...

[Lalwendë]

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...

Why? Because she is a lady and t'would be unbecoming to share a chamber with all those men!

Actually, I thought Chris Lee captured Saruman's voice perfectly. Exactly as I imagined it. After hearing his voice, I can see that Chris Lee truly understands Tolkien. Also, since PJ cut out the Scouring I thought the death of Saruman was really the best way they could have done it.

Going back to what Boromir 88 says about Saruman and Chris Lee, he did have the chance to meet Tolkien, and he also reads LotR every year so he is 'one of us'. i.e. a fan, and this shows in his performances in each of the films. Saruman truly comes to life in Lee's capable hands. This performance reminded me of his Wicker Man performance, both charming and treacherous.

About the power of his voice - surely one of the strengths of it is that he can get his words into the mind of any listener no matter how far away, so his being on top of Orthanc made sense to me.

The only disappointing thing was that his spirit did not rise to face Valinor and get rejected. But then this might have confused a fair few viewers so it's perfectly excusable. That was interesting though - the wheel of spikes; and he was the one who built the big ugly mill in Hobbiton, so a little link to the 'book version' there?

[Boromir88]

I feel a long post coming on here:

Guinevere,

I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ?

I laugh everytime I see the archers at Minas Tirith, shooting the large wooden siege towers, and not the trolls. Then Gandalf has to tell them "aim for the trolls!"

Tuor:

Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.

I can understand if Mr. Jackson wants to show some weakness in Denethor, since it would stress the fact that Gondor was in need of a King. I think the fact that in the books, that no enemy entered Minas Tirith, it was a nice defensive strategy by Denethor, and a good leadership quality of Gandalf. However, what people want to see this huge army come to the gates and be stopped in their track? Getting them in on the 4-5 levels adds suspense. Plus, it stresses that Gondor needs a King, where if people see this strategy by Denethor, that halts the Enemy in it's tracks people would wonder, was there a need for a king? The thing that gets me mad is Gandalf using the Steward as a punching bag, if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him. It has no unity, or plausibility, that people would watch while their lord is getting beaten up. Even if he was a raging mad man, who knew? Pippin might have, Gandalf probably, but if his servants are still willing to listen to him when he says "Burn my son," and they don't stop him from getting cracked in the face, just puzzles me, there is no unity. The other thing I'm dissapointed in, I can see Gondor being made weak, and see Denethor being dumped upon, but they made him seem like a crazy mad man ever since he took rule. And made it seem that Denethor was the worst thing that ever came to Gondor. without the palantir just makes him look more like a jerk then he already was. I hope that spiel wasn't too long, onto the next thing.

Tiger,

After all the build up, the Saruman scene didn't do it for me. I wanted more of the witty banter between Gandalf and Saruman, like in the books. The death was kinda cheesy too. I did, however, enjoy Bernard Hill's line delivery during this scene.

Good point about the banter. I imagined the scene as Saruman coming off as he's sorry in an attempt to manipulate Theoden. I wanted to see the Rohirrim cheering at the voice of Saruman, and then wonder in amazement when Theoden denied him. But that's how I pictured it and I don't find it dissapointing. I do not like how it's the almighty Legolas who kills Grima. I think Grima was one of the more pitable characters in Tolkien, and with his death in the book, I actually felt sorry for the guy. Now he will go down as the dirty scumbag that all great Legolas killed. But, that's how I view it.

With Saruman's death chech this post.
Origninally posted by me.

First-It's a metareference back to his earlier days as Dracula. Where several times Chris Lee is impaled on a wheel of spikes.

Second- If you think about it. Tolkien hates industry, hates machinery. Saruman is one that built up, he was like the "Germany," he was always mixing races, building industries, creating rings, in search for power. I think it's only natural that Saruman dies on his own machines that he constructed, a rather fitting end.

I think those are the reasons behind why PJ did what he did. Whether you like them or not though, is up to you Also, without the scouring, I'm just glad that they EVEN had Saruman. I think consdidering the circumstances that was a fitting end for Saruman.

And also, see this thread for a nice discussion on Saruman's and Grima's death (PJ's way).

Why is Eowyn wandering the encampment with her helmet off... and so close to Theoden too? I would've loved to have seen her as Dernhelm, if that makes sense. Some great scenes were lost from the book.

I would have preferred to have Eowyn disquised as Dernhelm too. However, we already know it's Eowyn by her voice and Merry so cleverly says "My lady." I too don't understand why Eowyn is walking around with her helmet off. She disguised herself, to sneak in without Theoden's approval, yet she's walking around "undisguised."

[mark12_30]

Not I, Saucy. I love the EE. Much praise to give, contrasted with one gripe. The glass is , hmmmm, ninety-five to ninety-eight percent FULL.

A Few Spoilers:

Eowyn's healing: Brief, but brilliant. Tribute to the fans, every bit of it. You had to know the book to know what was going on, to read behind the lines: Aragorn dips the cloth into the water: we know it's aethelas-water. He laves her brow with it: that's what you do with aethelas water. Then her cold, lifeless, very-grey arm-- her shield arm! We know why. And finally we watch her slowly wake-- we know why; there was a long struggle first, not but you couldn't take the time to explain it to non-bookies. Eomer is sitting very near, very concerned, while Aragorn does all this: but when Eowyn opens her eyes, who is she seeing? Is it Eomer? I'll have to watch it again to be sure. They never even explained that "the hands of a king are the hands of a healer." Therefore-- the whole scene was in a sense meaningless to those who hadn't read the book. It was a pure fan-tribute (not unlike Treebeard quoting Bombadil's lines to pseudo-Old Man Willow.)

That showed me (once again) how dedicated these film-makers (the whole team) are to making Old-school Tolkien fans as happy as they can. They already had their oscars, they could have just sat on their laurels. I'm glad they didn't.

Now for my one gripe: Black Gate, MoS. (I liked his portrayal just fine; I thought the arrogant, coquettish tiliting of his head was excellent. He thought he was just the cat's meow. Ugh! ) And I thought the whole Mithril shirt thing was well-done. But here's what bugged me. Aragorn, son of Arathorn, Elessar, Elfstone, the Heir of Isildur: breaking parley by murdering the messenger? Completely out of character. Where's the honor in that? No challenge, no warning, just-- whack. That breaks the code of war, and that is something Aragorn would not have done. And (while I'm at it) why was Gimli nudging Legolas' bow, supposed to be funny? Same thing. Breaking parley-- *not* cool.

Okay, end rant.

Otherwise: I loved it. Here are a few of my hilites:

Eomer's lecture: Good setup for what follows.
Merry talks to Eowyn: Very nice.
Balking Stybba: Excellent!!
Faramir & Pippin-- superb, I thought.
Magnificent: Rath Dinen. The sweep and scope of the city is fuller, more historical, and it brings TTT "Arwen at Aragorn's bier" scene momentarily back into focus.
Eomer's grief: too brief... but I'm glad it was there.
Houses of healing: did you SEE that garden-room? Or whatever it was, that rear-aerial shot, in the houses of healing? Gorgeous.
The orc with the Mithril shirt getting away-- Very key.
"You see, Mister Frodo? Some luck at last!" And then here come the troops. Great Irony.
Frodo picking a fight with Sam among the orcs: I liked it. It showed a Frodo that still had some brains left.
Sam's Pans, Sam's Pans! Oh, that was SO good.

[Turin]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I bet you lot would all refer to a glass as half empty ...

Us lot? You mean those people who DARE to find criticisms in Saint Peter Jackson's movies?

One is not a pessimist just because one finds (according to them) genuine faults in the movies.

In return, it could be said about, those "lot" who think the movies are perfect, that they are jumping on the Bandwagon!

[Turin]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

For now, a few brief comments:

1) Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.

2) In the extended dvd, why did Legolas shoot Grima? Grima was in the
process of, successfully, whacking Saruman.

3) The voice of Saruman was still underplayed, Saruman was far too
high up, not on the balcony of Orthanc, and there was no confrontation/
temptation of others by his voice, and no express allusion to the power of
his voice.

4) And, while the Easter Egg wasn't as "surprising" as the first two, I am
zinking the German interviewer certainly sought to ask probing and
provocative questions of Elijah Wood.

You echo some of my thoughts, Tuor! I'd forgotten about my uncomfortable feeling when Legolamb.. sorry LEGOLAS shoots Grima.

[Turin]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Originally posted by Turin: I agree with everything that Turin wrote in post #15 !

About the dialogues being inconsitant: I think so too! My favourite parts in all the movies are the parts where Tolkien's original quotes are used. But, more often than not, these quotes are spoken by different persons and in different circumstances. It annoys me that the scriptwriters thought they could do better than Tolkien...

There are several things that puzzled me in the new scenes:
- Saruman tells Gandalf "What words of comfort did you give the halfling before you sent him to his doom?" This sounds like he knows about Frodo being sent to Mt.Doom with the Ring... but how would he know that, and Sauron doesn't ? Strange...
I enjoyed seeing and hearing Christopher Lee again, but the scene "didn't do it" for me either.

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...

- I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ? And why do they let them land calmly instead of shooting them before they have landed?
"Faramir's sacrifice" indeed. It's more stupid than desperate to ride in a broad line towards the orcs lying in wait for them, so as to offer them the most possible targets!

- the avalanche of skulls in the Paths of the Dead was exaggerated and seemed therefore rather ridiculous to me.
I was astonished to see that when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli emerge from the paths, the river with the corsair's ships is immediately below them. Well, at least that explains why they could afford to let the horses escape before entering the paths! But even if they take a shortcut and do not make for Pelargir, Anduin would still be quite a long way off, as is shown on the map on the DVD-cover!!
Overall, ME in the movies seems much, much smaller than in the books.
- I, too, was mystified by the smashed "Evenstar". But then, the whole thing about Arwen dying and her fate being tied to the Ring etc never seemed logical to me.
- the "Houses of Healing" disappointed me too. No Athelas, no "healing hands" no "calling back" the spirit and Faramir & Merry aren't healed by Aragorn. I guess they just didn't want Aragorn to have supernatural powers..

-The „Mouth of Sauron“ seemed more disgusting than frightening to me. And I was disappointed about the changed conversation. What was the use of thrusting Frodo’s shirt at Gandalf and telling him that he had died under torment ? It seemed much more effective to me as it was in the book, where he implies that Frodo is in Sauron’s power but alive – that way he could try to blackmail them.


Like Tigerlily Gamgee I liked many of the small scenes that she mentioned and that enhanced the characters.
- My favourite new scene is "Pippin, guard of the Citadel" where he speaks with Faramir and is told that the livery was his as a boy. It's so nice to see those two become friends, and explains why Pippin will do everything to safe Faramir.

- I liked the scene with Faramir and Eowyn - it was very well done, although it was way too short! I had been looking forward to that so much! However, if those two weren't given more time and speech together, it was better to leave it at that, and not to show any kiss or talk of wedding.

Guinevere, you speak for me too! I agree about some of the more um...illogical choices that PJ & C0 made and definitley that some of the really good scenes were just too short.

[Boromir88]

The point I'm trying to get at is I truly think PJ read and understood LOTR. PJ's explanations for why he changed what he did, are reasonable. Whether they are to appeal to a larger fan base. To, what's the term, make LOTR "dumber," to emphasize certain aspects of the movie. I think PJ understood a lot of concepts in Tolkien, I also think he misinterpretted some of Tolkien's points (focusing in on the battles for one), but we all make misinterpretations from time to time. And we are STILL, here debating over, "What Tolkien is meaning to say/show us here?"

One thing for sure, we can all credit Mr. Jackson for having Tolkien placed back as one of the top selling authors of the century. That is the number one reason I enjoy the movies, the matter is, PJ got more people to pick up Tolkien books and read them .