**The Return of the King Extended Edition**

[Boromir88]

I feel a long post coming on here:

Guinevere,

I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ?

I laugh everytime I see the archers at Minas Tirith, shooting the large wooden siege towers, and not the trolls. Then Gandalf has to tell them "aim for the trolls!"

Tuor:

Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.

I can understand if Mr. Jackson wants to show some weakness in Denethor, since it would stress the fact that Gondor was in need of a King. I think the fact that in the books, that no enemy entered Minas Tirith, it was a nice defensive strategy by Denethor, and a good leadership quality of Gandalf. However, what people want to see this huge army come to the gates and be stopped in their track? Getting them in on the 4-5 levels adds suspense. Plus, it stresses that Gondor needs a King, where if people see this strategy by Denethor, that halts the Enemy in it's tracks people would wonder, was there a need for a king? The thing that gets me mad is Gandalf using the Steward as a punching bag, if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him. It has no unity, or plausibility, that people would watch while their lord is getting beaten up. Even if he was a raging mad man, who knew? Pippin might have, Gandalf probably, but if his servants are still willing to listen to him when he says "Burn my son," and they don't stop him from getting cracked in the face, just puzzles me, there is no unity. The other thing I'm dissapointed in, I can see Gondor being made weak, and see Denethor being dumped upon, but they made him seem like a crazy mad man ever since he took rule. And made it seem that Denethor was the worst thing that ever came to Gondor. without the palantir just makes him look more like a jerk then he already was. I hope that spiel wasn't too long, onto the next thing.

Tiger,

After all the build up, the Saruman scene didn't do it for me. I wanted more of the witty banter between Gandalf and Saruman, like in the books. The death was kinda cheesy too. I did, however, enjoy Bernard Hill's line delivery during this scene.

Good point about the banter. I imagined the scene as Saruman coming off as he's sorry in an attempt to manipulate Theoden. I wanted to see the Rohirrim cheering at the voice of Saruman, and then wonder in amazement when Theoden denied him. But that's how I pictured it and I don't find it dissapointing. I do not like how it's the almighty Legolas who kills Grima. I think Grima was one of the more pitable characters in Tolkien, and with his death in the book, I actually felt sorry for the guy. Now he will go down as the dirty scumbag that all great Legolas killed. But, that's how I view it.

With Saruman's death chech this post.
Origninally posted by me.

First-It's a metareference back to his earlier days as Dracula. Where several times Chris Lee is impaled on a wheel of spikes.

Second- If you think about it. Tolkien hates industry, hates machinery. Saruman is one that built up, he was like the "Germany," he was always mixing races, building industries, creating rings, in search for power. I think it's only natural that Saruman dies on his own machines that he constructed, a rather fitting end.

I think those are the reasons behind why PJ did what he did. Whether you like them or not though, is up to you Also, without the scouring, I'm just glad that they EVEN had Saruman. I think consdidering the circumstances that was a fitting end for Saruman.

And also, see this thread for a nice discussion on Saruman's and Grima's death (PJ's way).

Why is Eowyn wandering the encampment with her helmet off... and so close to Theoden too? I would've loved to have seen her as Dernhelm, if that makes sense. Some great scenes were lost from the book.

I would have preferred to have Eowyn disquised as Dernhelm too. However, we already know it's Eowyn by her voice and Merry so cleverly says "My lady." I too don't understand why Eowyn is walking around with her helmet off. She disguised herself, to sneak in without Theoden's approval, yet she's walking around "undisguised."

[HCIsland]

[QUOTE=Boromir88]The thing that gets me mad is Gandalf using the Steward as a punching bag, if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him. [QUOTE]

But it got such a cheer, at least from the audience I was with. Don't take this the wrong way, but if I directed a movie that got that kind of reaction from an audience, I would know I did it right.

I know I'm come across as a PJ fanatic at times, but I am not. I'm a great fan of the trilogy and, although King was my favourite film of last year, neither Towers nor Fellowship were of the years before. I don't think that it would have been a colossal oversight on the part of the Academy not to give Best Picture to King (they have numerous previous blunders that are larger) and would have been happy to see it go to Lost in Translation, an equally deserving film, though so different to be completely incomparable.

Nor do I think Jackson is the world's greatest working director, though he is a talent to be sure. I find each of his films are injected with a sense of raw fun that is sorely missing from almost all Hollywood blockbusters for quite some time. Is he over the top at times? Certainly yes, but there is such a lack of pomposity that I don't really mind. I would take Jackson over a dozen of these paint-by-number directors that currently make most of our summer brain candy. In fact, I would argue that his film Heavenly Creatures demonstrates a deft and a talent for creating simply but haunting images (the mother's murder from that film is still with me).

When I first heard that these movies were to be made I tried to keep my expectations under control, but these films turned out to be far better than I could have reasonable expected. I never expected Citizen Kane, but I think these films stand head and shoulders above anything else that has been produced in this genre in a long, long time. Certainly, there are things I would like to see tweaked, and I don't mind talking about them, but I find dwelling them beyond all the things that were done so well to be rather silly.

Anyway, on to my thoughts on the added scenes. On the whole I find them on much the same level as the extended versions of the other two films (I'm not, as a whole, much of a fan of extended cuts). Some scenes I love, some I could do without. I posted what I thought of the scenes on my Journal at Rotten Tomatoes, so if people don't mind, I'll paste them here.

The Voice of Saruman (A+): Absolutely marvelous! I was worried a bit about this scene, especially after seeing a production shot quite some time ago of Saruman impaled on one of those spikey wheels, but my worries were groundless. Lee was great, originally emerging consolatory but then spitting venom when he realizes that isn't going to work. There is some really nice dialogue here (much of which comes straight from the book) including Saruman telling Theoden that he is a lesser king than the ones that came before, which plays very well into later events with this character. I thought moving the deaths of Saruman and Wormtongue from The Shire to Isengard worked very well. I'm not exactly sure how one can have a conversation with someone who's about 300 feet in the air, but Saruman's tumble more than made up for that little issue. I really liked Jackson's touch of having Saruman slowly disappearing below the water as well. Very nice!

Gimli's & Legolas' Drinking Game (B): This one worked for me. Although sometimes I think John Rees Davies' Gimli gets a little too silly (especially in the extended scenes) this wasn't one of them. Gimli turns out to be rather desturbing when drunk. "Swimming with hairy women"? Very weird, but what really made this scene worked is that it provided the mirth for the return to Edoras scenes, allowing Jackson to insert a change into Merry's and Pippin's song showing that the palantir is every present on Pippin's mind.

Eowyn's Dream (B+): In the book this dream was given to Faramir and it is interesting how the same words can now have such a different meaning. In the book it is Faramir remembering the destruction of Numenor, connecting this character to something more noble from the past. For Eowyn it is metephor for her despair and her inability to see the light of hope and happiness coming from behind her. I liked it.

Pippin's Departure (A-): There is some nice dialogue from Merry to Aragorn as they watch Gandalf and Pippin ride off, where he expresses his concerns and laments about being seperated from Pippin. It was the first extra bit that I wondered if it would have been better in the theatrical cut.

Minas Tirith (A): I like the lines of Theoden giving Gandalf crap for foolishly sending The Ring into Mordor. Saruman has some lines to this effect directed at Gandalf too, and I like these scenes that cast some doubt onto Gandalf's plans.

The Decline of Gondor (A): Nice little history lesson here with some extra great shots of the city.

Cross-roads of the Fallen King (C): These scene is very much as it is described in the book but it doesn't feel in it's right place here. Likely it would have worked better earlier in the film, but I don't think that fits there either. It's a nice little scene, but I think it's better off not being there.

Sam's Warning (C-): A superfluous scene of Sam warning Gollum that he'll be watching him and Frodo catching the tail end of the conversation. Of course, this is working towards Frodo eventually sending Sam off, but I don't think that needs any more scenes to support.

Invasion of Osgiliath (C+): An extra scene of the orcs shooting a guard from a tower as they cross the river which only begs the question, how can the orcs spot a guard in an unlit tower window when that same guard has touble seeing a fleet of torch lit barges coming his way? This begs the further question, if you were sneaking across a river, why would you light your barges with torches? There is some extra dialogue between Faramir and his second in command (I can't remember his name) which works as that guy gets killed fairly soon. The extra scenes are okay, but nothing to go on about.

Merry Pledging to Theoden (B): Another nice little scene. We need more Merry but I can understand why, in the theatrical cut, we need to stay with the more major characters which are Frodo and Aragorn. There's also a bit with Merry struggling to get his pony going and Legolas talking of battles coming to other areas of Middle Earth.

The Wizard's Pupil (A+): An extra scene where Denethor berates Faramir for not bringing The Ring to him. This scene also has a powerful moment where Denethor has a delusion of Boromir being in the room. The scene works exrtremely well at expressing the relationship between Faramir and Denethor, as well Denethor insanity. Very well acted by John Noble and executed by Jackson. In my opinion, this is a best of the added scenes.

Peregrin of the Tower Guard (A): Very nice scene between Pippin and Faramir, connected these two characters together and further allowing us to understand the change in character of Pippin when he resues Faramir from Denethor's Pyre.

Marshalling at Dunharrow (D+): There are some extra lines from Eomer telling Eowyn that war is the domain for men. He is speaking as to why Merry (a hobbit) should not come to Minas Tirith, but we know the second meaning behind the line. Personally, I think the conversation was better when it ended with Eowyn's line, "why can't he fight for those he loves". The way it is in the extended cut, it almost seems that Eowyn's decision to ride with the Rohirrim is in reaction to Eomer. "Oh yeah, I'll show you big brother."

Aragorn Takes the Paths of the Dead (A): Aragorn's last line to Eowyn is now, "I've wished you joy since first I saw you", which works so well now that we will be getting a resolution to Eowyn's story.

Dwimorberg-The Haunted Mountain (C+): There is also some extra lines in the Legolas history lesson which, I suppose, makes the paths seem creepier.

Paths of the Dead (C-): Both good and bad in here. I like the extra scenes of Legolas describing the dead following them and Gimli getting more and more afraid, though Gimli's antics get a little too silly. We then get treated to the avalanche of skulls which chases our heros out the other side. After, it seems that Aragorn failed in getting the Dead to follow but then the King of the Dead emerges saying, "We'll fight". I'm neither here nor there about the scenes themselves but personally, I thought the it worked much better ending as it did in the theatrical cut, where it is left unsaid whether Aragorn succeeded or not.

The Siege of Gondor (A-): There are extra scenes building up to the appearance of Grond, the huge battering ram. The scenes include shots of orcs using a smaller battering ram that is completely ineffective against the gates. This does bring up the question, if you have this huge battering ram which is obviously built specifically for this purpose, wouldn't you have brought used it right away in the first place? Either way, the scenes work well for the DVD because Grond's appearance marks the end of the first disk and it makes it really feel like an end of a part 1.

The Corsairs of Umbar (B): Okay, this scene got a giggle out of me. I figure if you are going to let the audience know that the Dead are going to fight for Aragorn, you should be giving us them attacking the Corsairs. I'm fine with this little bit.

Merry's Simple Courage (A): Nice scene between Merry and Eowyn which really works to show Eowyn seeing some light in the tunnel that she is in.

The Tomb of the Stewards (A): Some good extra dialogue from Denethor showing his state of mind a little more clearly. There is also a neat shot of a single blossom blooming on The White Tree.

The Witch King's Hour (C-): The shot of Gandalf confronting the Witch King was featured prominently in the original trailers for the film, and it looked gorgeous, and the truth is, it is. There is nothing wrong with the scene itself but it is a classic example of how a good scene does not necessarily mean it makes the movie better. The arrival of the Rohirrim is much better in the theatrical cut. The whole city appear lost. Gandalf is yelling, "fight to the last man," and then the horns sound. We get Theoden's great speech, they charge and then we get Pippin finding Gandalf, the two ride off to rescue Faramir and we cut back to the charging Rohirrim. There is just so much energy on the screen this way. The Witch King scene forces this to be changed and the result is a far less dynamic presentation of the events that are unfolding. The whole is not always the sum of it's pieces.

The Pyre of Denethor (A): One extra line from Denethor before he drops the torch: "You may triumph on the field of battle for a day, but against the power that has risen in the east there is no victory". I really like it.

The Battle of Pelenor Fields (C-): Some extra fighting shots which do little to add to the development of the battle and merely make it longer (like it wasn't already plenty long). Better moments include Merry having a nice kill and Theoden seemingly catching a glimps of Eowyn just before the Witch King attacks.

Victory at Minas Tirith (D-): There is a silly extra scene where the wounded Gothmog (the Elephant Man like orc commander) is closing in on the wounded Eowyn only to be cut down by Aragorn and Gimli steamroller. Pretty dumb and better being absent.

The Houses of Healing (B): Nice scene of Eomer finding Eowyn followed by a short montage of Aragorn healing Eowyn and her rising and seeing Faramir. I know purists will balk at this one, but considering the time constraints (even in a 4 hour plus film) I thought they did a nice job. The thing to remember is that they never shot this stuff intending there to be an extended cut of the film. This was shot because they felt they may be able to get it into the theatrical cut, and thus they knew there wouldn't be the time to do anything like what was in the book. My one complaint about the scene is that someone who has not read the book would be left pretty confused as to why Eowyn was so sick. The movie never provides a reason.

Pippin Finds Merry (B-): The scene is shifted to the night time (oh, those tricky colour graders). Nothing wrong with the scene, but by this point the extra minutes are starting to add up. We need to get back to Frodo and Sam.

Aragorn & The Palantir (A): Nice scene which really shows how Aragorn is drawing Sauron away from Frodo and Sam. I like the inclusion of the dieing Arwen. That palantir is a nasty machine!

Faramir & Eowyn (A-): The scene is fine and works to give a conclusion to Eowyn, which was certainly missing from the theatrical cut. Even though this scene is short, you can really feel how it detracts from what was going on with Frodo and Sam and at the Black Gate. Tolkien himself moved the scene until after the climax at Mount Doom, which works much better, but Jackson didn't have the same kind of freedom when it comes to nonlinear story telling.

In the Company of Orcs (D): Tolkien had this scene because he needed to have something happen to Frodo and Sam as they crossed Gorgoroth. This film doesn't need it as it serves no real purpose. It's done fine enough, it just doesn't seem to have a point.

The Land of Shadow (C+): There is an extra, brief scene of Frodo and Sam throwing away their gear, but it doesn't seem to carry the same weight as it does in the book. On extra shot of Sam looking longingly at his cooking gear before he throws it into the fisure would have been enough for me.

The Mouth of Sauron (A-): I think The Mouth was one of their best bits of design in the whole trilogy. This guy creeps me out. I think Aragorn decapitating him is a bit much (and not very statesman like at that). Sending him off with his tail between his legs as it happens in the book would have been better, but I like how it sets up their despair over thinking that Frodo is dead.

H.C.

[HCIsland]

This is something fun I figured out just today.

I added up the total times of the three extended editions (without the closing credits) and they almost perfectly make sixteen, standard, one hour (ie. 44 minutes) television episodes. I even took some time to work out where the breaks in the episodes would be and most of them worked out fairly well.

So, who has those network connections?

H.C.

[Elennar Starfire]

I loved it! And...TWO easter eggs! I've only found one each on FotR and TTT...

[Iaurhirwen]

Oooh, where are the easter eggs???? I can't even find any in FOTR and TTT, even though I know where to look

[HCIsland]

The Easter Eggs are hidden in much the same way as on the other extended editions, so if you were unsuccessful before I'm not sure this will help.

Aren't there some contries that don't have them on? I'm seem to recall hearing that they (or some) weren't there in the UK.

Number 1: Disk 1 -> Select a Scene -> go to the numbers on the left and select 33-36 -> scroll down to 36. The Siege of Gonder but don't select, just press down one more time and a gold ring should appear at the bottom of the screen. Now press Enter.

This is a very funny fake interview by Dom Monighan with Elijah Wood.

Number 2: Basically do the exact same thing but on disk 2. This one is a not quite as funny, but still entertaining fake pitch to Peter Jackson to create a sequel.

H.C.

[Boromir88]

HCI

But it got such a cheer, at least from the audience I was with. Don't take this the wrong way, but if I directed a movie that got that kind of reaction from an audience, I would know I did it right.

Same happened to the theatres I went to. I undertsand why PJ had the Steward punching bag, just don't agree with it.

The Pyre of Denethor (A): One extra line from Denethor before he drops the torch: "You may triumph on the field of battle for a day, but against the power that has risen in the east there is no victory". I really like it.

Yes, that is a great line, and eventhough they didn't show Denethor with the Palantir, that is a hint he had it.