Nothing left to wait for? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 12-15-2004, 07:54 PM

SpM, I can get up a thread on metareferences and intertextuality, it will take me a few days to view the movies and get some ideas.

The point of metareferences and intertextuality, is in a movie (or book/writings), to draw attention to a previously written book/movie. It supports the idea that no piece of work is "fully original," or fully "created." Literature now adays (and more centuries) have written off of previous ideas, and then slightly altering the story. As one example from ROTK the movie, to get everyone on the same page.

Saruman being impaled on a wheel spikes, is a metareference to his earlier acting days as Dracula. Where Chris Lee is impaled on a wheel of spikes several times. The fact that it's Chris Lee (Saruman) and Chris Lee (Dracula) makes it a metareference. Trying to draw attention to his earlier movies. If it was somebody who acted as Saruman (say Ian Mckellan) then it would be intertextuality.

Some authors/directors, use metareferences and intertextually purposefully, others use it unconsciously. Where they read a story, or watch a movie, and then as human nature, we write our own stories about these. Then as a viewer we go "Oh that's from...so and so" or "That's sort of like this." A lot of people believe, now adays, Literature/Films, are filled with metareferences and intertextuality. That everything we have written/made, has been done, but the story is just different. Another example, this time intertextuality, the feud between dwarves and elves. I don't know about everyone, but this reminds me of the hatfield and the mccoys, also Montagues and Capulets. Again, Tolkien could be doing this purposefully, or just unconsciously.

Nimrodel_9 · 12-20-2004, 04:55 PM

I was reading "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" a few days back. I was flipping through the pages at the front of the book, when I came upon this. It is not in full, but here is the part that stuck out to me the most.

Quote:

...I think Harry will take his place with Alice, Huck, Frodo, and Dorothy, and this is one series not just for the decade, but for the ages.
-Stephen King, Entertainment Weekly

also

Quote:

...As this volume, like its predecessors, attests, Rowling has imagined this universe in such minute and clever detail that we feel we`ve been admitted to a looking-glass world as palpable as Tolkien`s Middle-earth or L. Frank Baum`s Oz...

This made me happy.

Anorien · 12-20-2004, 11:38 PM

yeah, i know, i realized there were no more of the series coming out. but hey! rumor is they are coming out with The HObbit!

gorthaur_cruel · 12-21-2004, 06:21 AM

After reading this, I'm convinced that the best prequel to LotR would be about Akallabeth. The link I gave gives a very detailed idea on how the author thinks the movie should be made. The second part is just this much (*pinches fingers together*) short of being a real movie script.

HerenIstarion · 12-21-2004, 07:56 AM

Thanks for the link, oh Cruel one

There was a good read on it, and idea is quite plausible. I wonder, have Jackson read that piece? And I wonder, do we imply that it is Jackson who should make another 'Tolkienian', to use the term I picked up on that site, movie?

Tuor of Gondolin · 12-21-2004, 07:58 AM

While I still favor The Hobbit, The Father Christmas Letters, or
Roverandom as easily marketable (for Hollywood) and therefore
more readily made, the Akallabeth suggestion is intriguing, especially
since it could end with Isildur, and perhaps even the Istari
(ignoring the time sequence a bit and using a concluding voiceover)
landing at the Gray Havens, with cameos for Gandalf and Saruman.

It would be daring, but could be a real "groundbreaking" type of
film, and so Hollywood would probably shy away, even if CT or heirs
went along with it.

Would making the Father Christmas Letters require anything other
then Baillie Tolkien approval, thereby circumventing a CT veto?

12-20-2004, 11:38 PM	#3
Anorien Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Old Navy of Rohan Posts: 138	yeah, i know, i realized there were no more of the series coming out. but hey! rumor is they are coming out with The HObbit! __________________ FRODO: all low and retarded Oh Mr. Frodo, do you have any more food? Here eat mine, I’m so fat. How about I carry the ring for you. It’s soooo pretty, I mean heavy! SAM: Why you little-! FRODO: You asked for it!

12-21-2004, 07:56 AM	#5
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	Thanks for the link, oh Cruel one There was a good read on it, and idea is quite plausible. I wonder, have Jackson read that piece? And I wonder, do we imply that it is Jackson who should make another 'Tolkienian', to use the term I picked up on that site, movie? __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

12-21-2004, 07:58 AM	#6
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	While I still favor The Hobbit, The Father Christmas Letters, or Roverandom as easily marketable (for Hollywood) and therefore more readily made, the Akallabeth suggestion is intriguing, especially since it could end with Isildur, and perhaps even the Istari (ignoring the time sequence a bit and using a concluding voiceover) landing at the Gray Havens, with cameos for Gandalf and Saruman. It would be daring, but could be a real "groundbreaking" type of film, and so Hollywood would probably shy away, even if CT or heirs went along with it. Would making the Father Christmas Letters require anything other then Baillie Tolkien approval, thereby circumventing a CT veto? __________________ Aure Entuluva!

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12-15-2004, 07:54 PM	#1
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	SpM, I can get up a thread on metareferences and intertextuality, it will take me a few days to view the movies and get some ideas. The point of metareferences and intertextuality, is in a movie (or book/writings), to draw attention to a previously written book/movie. It supports the idea that no piece of work is "fully original," or fully "created." Literature now adays (and more centuries) have written off of previous ideas, and then slightly altering the story. As one example from ROTK the movie, to get everyone on the same page. Saruman being impaled on a wheel spikes, is a metareference to his earlier acting days as Dracula. Where Chris Lee is impaled on a wheel of spikes several times. The fact that it's Chris Lee (Saruman) and Chris Lee (Dracula) makes it a metareference. Trying to draw attention to his earlier movies. If it was somebody who acted as Saruman (say Ian Mckellan) then it would be intertextuality. Some authors/directors, use metareferences and intertextually purposefully, others use it unconsciously. Where they read a story, or watch a movie, and then as human nature, we write our own stories about these. Then as a viewer we go "Oh that's from...so and so" or "That's sort of like this." A lot of people believe, now adays, Literature/Films, are filled with metareferences and intertextuality. That everything we have written/made, has been done, but the story is just different. Another example, this time intertextuality, the feud between dwarves and elves. I don't know about everyone, but this reminds me of the hatfield and the mccoys, also Montagues and Capulets. Again, Tolkien could be doing this purposefully, or just unconsciously.

12-21-2004, 06:21 AM	#4
gorthaur_cruel Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 92	After reading this, I'm convinced that the best prequel to LotR would be about Akallabeth. The link I gave gives a very detailed idea on how the author thinks the movie should be made. The second part is just this much (pinches fingers together) short of being a real movie script.