**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[Findegil]

After providing the facts in the last post, I will, after some thought, give away my oppinion about Mablung and the hunt:
For me the information that Mablung did survie to speak with Dírhaval at the Haevens is valid. With that it would be easiest to skip him from the hunt completly. But the easiest way is not the one I would go. He is Thingols chief thane and by his deads in the original Wolf-hunt I would find it strange if he would not have been there when the celebration hunt was so special in that year. Thus I think, if we let him take part in the hunt but mention that he was not with the small company that was lured outside the girdle we only make explicit what is to be expacted.

Looking at the note, I think that Naugaldur killed Thingol when he was bound by the Necklace. It was Tolkiens last (formulated) idea and it would make Melians and Berens acrusing Naugladur as a morderer more just. In addition it fits very well with the cruse of the Nauglamír and its effect in the fight of Beren and Naugladur.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

The question here is:
Do we consider Mablung alive in the days of Dírhaval (as he is named in the second version) or not? If we consider him alive, do we still see him as a part of the fatal hunting party of Thingol?

I think that the simplest change would be not to introduce parragraph 35, as I intended to do in the Attack on Menegroth discussion. So that we can be vague about the fate of Mablung.

[Aiwendil]

The story in "Aelfwine and Dirhavel" 1 that Mablung survived and came to the mouths of Sirion certainly supercedes the story in TN. And we have no later evidence that the story reverted to the earlier one. So I would say that in our version Mablung must be supposed to survive and make it to the havens.

In view of the invalidation of the story of Mablung as told in TN, my first inclination is to take Findegil's easy way out and leave him out of the hunt completely.

[Maédhros]

So, we all agree on Mablung it seems. Then I think that we can move foward to the next section.

[Findegil]

Okay, so we will take Mablung out of the hunt completly. I will provide a subtitution text for the scene later on. Hopefuly before we start with section 3.

I agree with Maédhros that section is done so fare and that we should go on with "Outlaws in Menegroth".

Respectfully
Findegil

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well, I'm hardly now more than a pest, and I must commend Findegil's editing. Perhaps, when my children are grown, I can delve into the textual nitty-gritty. Or, perhaps, I should try anyway, but in addition to my famous daughter, I am now blessed with Aidan son of Arthur. And, having now read the whole HoME, I can't think of a revised Silmarillion without the revised cosmology, which seems easier to rectify than some of things dealt with here.

In any event, allow me some concessions and arguments about what I had intended in response to Findegil. Also, I adjure all "Fan-Fiction," I don't even read it, but I am open-minded about the alternatives that exist for understanding JRRT's more general and allusional passages. We are not dealing with hard facts.

FD-SL-01 / Note 1: So we all agree that Húrin had a band with him. The Naming might be objectively wrong, but the cores of the group were the companions from Hithlum and Tolkien ever called them outlaws. Thus, I think we could use that name for Húrin following still.

"Outlaws" they are by convention; I was just commenting that it has a negative connotation that may be somewhat oppostional to JRRT's latest intent. More Robin-Hood-like outlaws might be more appropriate.

FD-SL-03 / Note 2: We could clearly give different accounts of Mîm's death in the way Man of the World suggested it. But if we do that as often as suggested we will break the narrative to peaces. And I don't think it is needed her. Q30 is the last source of the event, and even if the motives of Húrin are changed
we can still find good reasons for him not to promote or deal out Mîm's death.

Naturally, with agreement, the use of a single tradition is best. Having Mim's death occur contrary to Hurin's wishes is fine. Though after Wandering's I'd avoid ascribing any charity or mercy to Hurin, just that he might not have wanted Mim killed as such.

FD-SL-10 / Note 3: The fate of the outlaws is discussed already at length in this thread. And we all seem to agree that they could not overcome (at least not all) the cruse of Mîm. How we can make that clear in our text is the difficult part and can, as I think, only be worked out with the text-editing.

This is clearly difficult. The less said the better. It might be implied that some are more immediately affected, falling ill or mad along the road, per the lines from the original Tale of the Nauglafring and leave it at that.

FD-SL-05 / Note 4: I don't see the advantage in the storyline Man of the World suggested. Beside the fact that we have no source for it so that it would be pure fan-fiction, we would also ruin the gesture as in Q30 if Elves of Doriath would carry the treasure into the hall. If we are going to accept that awkwardness than we should use the story of Q30 because it would settle the fate of the outlaws nicely.

Granted, I was just musing about untold explanations. I do consider it implausible, however, that any more than a few of Hurin's companions, who reached Doriath, might have been allowed to actually enter therein. Assuming some of the treasure was lost along the way, I see no problem in assuming (however implicitly) that it got loaded on a few Sindarin wagons for final transport to Menegroth, but it should be indicated that more than the Nauglafring was delivered. Let's just assume that Hurin's men did the loading by his will. I would then edit things such that Hurin is alone or virtually alone when appearing before and bitterly mocking Thingol and Melian.

FD-SL-7 / Note 5: The healing of Húrin is, in my view, not in line with context of the tragedy call Narn. Beside that I even do not see the ability for Melian to do that. Could she have lifte the cruse than she would have done it earlier with Túrin, Morwen and Nienor who were all for some time under her protection. I think Húrin must depart in bitterness. Thus his free death in the western-sea, reported as a rumour, is much more likely.

First, I don't see Hurin's as free-death, but rather tragic suicide brought on by extreme mental anguish, which was not necessarily improved by knowing the truth. While it might not be retainable, I wouldn't be too sure that CT entirely made it up in terms of what Melian does, simply for lack of pertinent manuscript text. It makes sense. All she's doing for Hurin is subtly lifting a veil of deception.

I for one do not believe that his family was cursed by Morgoth in any particular way. Morgoth wot perhaps something of the fate that awaited them, and he actively influenced it further through both mystical powers and tangible actions, but they had the ability to control and moderate (though not conquer) such doom by being less prideful, impulsive and haughty. They remained true and faithful to the struggle, nevertheless, achieving more than some of the first-born, and are remembered by the Elves not only out of pity, but as great Elf-friends.

Hurin is too, and Morgoth's goal in showing him a distorted picture of his family's ill-fortune was to manipulate his bitterness. That such a bubble is so easily burst by Melian I find very fitting. Still, drop it if you think CT was off base.

FD-SL-14 to FD-SL-17 / Note 9: I agree with the statement of Man of the World, but to create a text for it we make this more difficult.

I am quite sure the texts exists in terms of Thingol's outrage and the dwarves expulsion without pay. Again, I was offering something about why this works that needn't be added, even if other existing texts are not used.

FD-SL-17 to FD-SL-19 / Note 10: Agreed in general, but I don't think the passage in The Hobbit can be read like Man of the World does read it. Even in the later position of Thranduils realm in north Mirkwood all his dwarven neighbours were of Dúrins house (Ered Mithrim, Erebor, Ered Engrin) in the former location in southern Mirkwood they were even nearer to the main city of Dúrins Folk. Thus if the family of Thorin was not involved in that incident than the passage must refer to some other realm.

No, I agree that when JRRT wrote The Hobbit he simply had in mind a dwarf-reformed version of The Tale of the Nauglafring/Quenta Noldorina. In the 1930s, JRRT might have even thought of Bilbo's Eriador as being under Gil-Galad's rule (the King) and maybe separated from the great Goblin Wars by a Millenium. Still, given later traditions regarding the vast intervening Second and Third Ages (over 6,000 years), I feel that speculation concerning vague texts allows one to think of Wood-Elves of that region having done business with a more easterly Dwarf House when the power of Durin's Folk had been in retreat at one time or another.

Also, in view of protest from someone else, I must say that Mim's murder cannot be used at all as a pretext by Great Dwarves. They clearly would have cared less about him.

FD-SL-23 / Note 11: I don't think that the girdle could be overcome by treachery at all, and I think Maedhros and Aiwendil agree with me in this point. What the Warriors of Doriath did protect were parts of Thingols realm not included in the Girdle, like Dimbar were Túrin and Beleg fought. People that were rescued from starving in the decides of the Girdle and let in by Elves like Beleg did with Túrin or like Húrin were, at least, thought of by Melian as being in freindly terms with Thingol. And they all were led in as "guarded guests". Clearly it is possible to tell a fan-fictional story were some Elves of Doriath feign to make the army of Naugladur prisoners and thus gained a passage for, but that would by fare beyond the border of the limits set by our rules. And in addition the Dwarves did not need some Elves to show them the way into Doriath, they had visited it many times before. But still JRR Tolkien wrote concerning the Dwarves: "Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army!"

I would agree that Doriath could not be directly penetrated, but much harm could be done to the borders, and what's to stop someone from burning and chopping the forests down as they go? Easily defended it was, but defended the woods needed to be.

FD-SL-20 / Note 12: It is nice to have someone on my side concerning the treachery of the Elves of Doriath, even if we do not agree in the way it affected the storyline.

I think it's important to retain some reference to the confusion and troubles of those days and not to let the Grey-Elves off too easily as immune to greed and the Doom of Mandos. But one could certainly dismiss treachery as an element in the Nogrodrim's victory.

FD-SL-21 / Note 13: What Man of the World did suggest her is not useable for the project as it is again hardly fashionable within the rules of the project.

Maybe. At the same time, I see the story of the Hunt as useless and unsustainable. I wouldn't refer to it at all. Why would Thingol be hunting beyond Doriath or the pedestrian Dwarves be able to intercept a hunting party? ... even if somehow informed of its general location.

Therefore, I'd succinctly go with the later reference of Thingol's being lured out beyond the Girdle, the only explanation being implied about his rage and carelessness in wanting to confront the Dwarves, who dared to wage war. Makes sense. Why would he just sit tight and let the Dwarves harry his borders? He's also easily incensed one gathers.

Let Mablung's fate stay unreported, though. The notion of treachery having played a role can simply be dismissed as a wicked rumor, that reflected only how the lies of Morgoth and the Doom of Mandos had indeed managed to enter into the hearts of the Doriathrim.

FD-SL-23 / Note 14: I agree on this point, but Maedhros still has an other view.

Once Thingol falls on the marches, his forces are scattered, his folk are in disarray, and I think there is only one logical move for the Melian of the later Silmarillion, which is to depert Middle-Earth forthwith. She doesn't belong there w/o Thingol,

FD-SL-23.5 / Note 15: Agreed on the first part, but I don't see why the dwarves would not be able for such violence as the ravening of Menegroth. The pitiless fight of the Dwarves against the Orks in the third age is an example for such violence on the side of the Dwarves.

I'm sure the Dwarves were capable of some mindless destruction and would have met some resistance. But they have one thing in their sights, and The Tale of the Nauglafring was written with decidedly evil Dwarves in mind, who were often as not allies with the goblins. And the Third-Age War with Orcs can hardly be compared with one against another Free People, with which the Dwarves had been allies in earlier Battles. I daresay only the Elves might attempt less than a pitiless war against Orcs.

FD-SL-23 / Note 16: Again I agree to Man of the World here but Maedhros seems to have still some objections.

Melian apparating to Ossiriand? Oh please!

Again, from what the eye catches I think fine work is going on, but a thin chapter it will remain. My compliments.

[Petty Dwarf]

All this work on Doriath looks fantastic, guys. You make it look like it could have been done in 1977.