LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 04 - Treebeard

[HerenIstarion]

With pleasure:

'The little that I know of his long slow story would make a tale for which we have no time now. Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth

[The Saucepan Man]

Hmm, it's difficult to doubt Gandalf. But surely there must still be Elves in Middle-earth who outstrip Treebeard in terms of age. Wasn't Cirdan one of the Elves who originally woke by Lake Cuivienen? And what about Tom? I believe that there is a thread about this somewhere around here ...

As for Treebeard's reference to the trees in the dark hollows that were even older than he, perhaps, like Old Man Willow, they were not able to walk.

Edit: There are a few threads on this. Here are two of them:

Who’s the oldest?

Who’s the oldest? (2)

[HerenIstarion]

Wakening of the Ents by Elves - I always figured that as consisting mainly in teaching the former speech - awaking from slumber. Thing which slumbers is alive by definition. When fully awoke and able to hum-burarum-ram-roms and similar, it is allegedly more alive than before, drowsy as it was, but it were not dead matter, it were 'alive and kicking', though dumb and speechless.

Besides, does Cirdan walk per se? He rather sits on his wossname most of the time, on the very brim of ME.

And another besides - it may be mere slip of the tongue on Gandalf's part - he may have not remembered exeptions right on the spot, or maybe he was reluctant to break an impression of antiquity he was working up in his listeners etc. It would have been lecture rather than recollection if it ran as follows:

he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing, apart from Iarwain, who is [insert appropriate here] and therefore older, and Cirdan, who was born, as you may know, by lake Cuivienen, which is now lost, that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth

And the third besides (being a speculation, rather than statement): Cirdan is an elf - therefore his life would last as long as Arda lasts, even if he's killed and goes to Aman. Tom is unknown entity (whatever my personal opinions), but allegedly not bound by such a trifle as death. Ents, on the other hand, are similar to humans in ageing and dying, which may take a long time, but the process is evident - Ents are old, some of them die, and all of them will die out unless the Entwives be found. So, it may be that Gandalf has mental proviso, including that class of creatures (dying with true death), and that's among those is Treebeard the oldest - for obviously, Tom is an exeption and elves are special.

EDIT. Just another 'walking' thought (supporting third 'besides') - Gandalf is incarnate, therefore living being, and by that he may be the older one - but he does not draw himself in, neither Saruman, nor Radagast - i.e. different class of beings does not count. So I proclaim speculation plausible END OF EDIT

cheers

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Hmm, it's difficult to doubt Gandalf. But surely there must still be Elves in Middle-earth who outstrip Treebeard in terms of age. Wasn't Cirdan one of the Elves who originally woke by Lake Cuivienen? And what about Tom? I believe that there is a thread about this somewhere around here ...

Oh this is another one of those sticking points which Tolkien fans love to stretch out as if it were one of those old-style taffy-pulls of days gone by.

An authority no less than Tom himself tells the hobbits:

"Who are you, Master;" [Frodo] asked.

"Eh, what?" said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

Where oh where was Christopher Proof-reader on this one?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The difference in forests in the bulk of Middle-earth, as opposed to
Beleriand and Numenor- which hold no apparent significant evil-
is interesting, Fangorn's etc. evil due to the influence of Morgoth and Sauron?

For example, about the Bay of Eldanna:

All about that place, up the seaward slopes and far into the land, grew the evergreen and fragrant trees that they brought out of the West, and so throve there that the Elder said that almost it was fair as a haven of Eressea. They were the greatest delight of Numenor, and they were remembered in many songs long after they had perished for ever, for few ever flowered east of the Land of Gift: oiolaire and lairelosse, nessamelda, vardarianna, taniquelasse, and yavannamire with its globed and scarlet fruits. Flower, leaf, and rind of those trees exuded sweet scents, and all that country was full of blended fragrance...only here grew the mighty golden tree malinorne, reaching after five centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressea.

Perhaps an echo of what Fangorn, Mirkwood, etc. could have been without
the machinations of Morgoth and Sauron

[Boromir88]

Wonderful quote Bethberry, maybe there is no slip up in the proof-reading of Christopher Tolkien. Maybe, it's simply pointing out that Gandalf himself made a slip up. I agree with SpM, that Gandalf is one of the more trusted peoples from LOTR, but he even makes his slip ups. Denethor is right when saying Gandalf doesn't know everything, I think Gandalf is more reliable then Denethor, but Gandalf has made some occasional slip ups. Even some of the most reliable sources of info can make wrong judgements (as I'm sure we are well aware of).

This right here is what makes Tolkien interesting to read. With all these POV's you got to pick out who is more reliable, one or the other. There is no clear answer, but some people are just more reliable then others. I would hold Bombadil, Treebeard, Glorfindel, Galadriel, to name a few who are more reliable then Gandalf.

[Boromir88]

I think I just found a reasonable argument to solve this question. But, of course, I am open to debate .

In Bethberry's quote:

Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

Tom remembers the time before the rivers and the trees, and he says "Tom is the eldest....mark my words."

Where Treebeard's account of "time" only goes to when Middle-earth was filled with forests:

"It is a rather strange and sad story," he went on after a pause. "When the world was young, and the woods were wide and wild....and the Entwives gave their thought to other things, for the Ents loved the great trees, and the wild woods, and the slopes of the high hills; and they drank of the mountain-streams...."

Treebeard doesn't mention anything about the time before the rivers, and the woods, so their are two possibilities: Either Treebeard has no need to get into the time before, and can't remember, or Bombadil was here before. Since, he can mention about the time before the trees and rivers.

One quick observation, I think there are a lot of simularities between Lorien and Fangorn.

"Then lead on!" said Boromir. "But it is perilous."
"Perilous indeed," said Aragorn, "fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with the. Follow me!"

I think the same can be said for Fangorn. If you are an orc destroying trees, and "bring evil into the forest," then it is perilous, since you just ticked off the Ents. but, if you are a good-hearted Hobbit, then you don't need to worry.

Celeborn instructs the Fellowship to not go into Fangorn. Where Treebeard says "And I might have same, if you had been going the other way. Do not risk getting entangled in the woods of Laurelindorenan!"

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by HI

Wakening of the Ents by Elves - I always figured that as consisting mainly in teaching the former speech - awaking from slumber. Thing which slumbers is alive by definition.

True, but could they walk before they were awoken? Since they become more "tree-like" with age and inactivity, I imagine that this is how they were before the Elves awoke them. And I suspect that Gandalf's inclusion of the words "walks beneath the Sun" are important, since there could well be trees that are older than Treebeard (for example, those in the deep dark hollows).

I go along with your theory as far as Ainur and Tom are concerned, HI, but I am not sure that it entirely explains the inconsistency as far as Elves are concerned. Perhaps, as you suggest, Gandalf was just talking in "shorthand".

Originally Posted by Boro

There is no clear answer, but some people are just more reliable then others. I would hold Bombadil, Treebeard, Glorfindel, Galadriel, to name a few who are more reliable then Gandalf.

In one of Tolkien's Letters, he casts doubt on Treebeard's reliability (though not his integrity), saying that he does not know everything. And, as one of the Maiar, I would class Gandalf as more reliable than Glorfindel and Galadriel, although their direct involvement in Middle-earth is the longer. As for Tom, well who knows ...?

Originally Posted by Bb

Oh this is another one of those sticking points which Tolkien fans love to stretch out as if it were one of those old-style taffy-pulls of days gone by.

Indeed. And I am one of those taffy-pullers.

But there is much more to discuss in this Chapter. I would, for example, be interested to hear other views on the tale of the Entwives, Tolkien's "male v female approach" comment in his letter and how this all relates back to the Old Forest Chapter and Tolkien's own views on nature (wild v tamed).

Also, why the focus on Pippin rather than Merry?

Finally:

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Perhaps an echo of what Fangorn, Mirkwood, etc. could have been without the machinations of Morgoth and Sauron

Although Middle-earth does have this in Lothlorien which, though perilous, is entirely different in character to Fangorn, Mirkwood and the Old Forest.

EDIT: Cross-posting with Boro's edit, expressing a different view. I agree with you on that one point, although I suspect that Lorien does not have the deep dark hollows that Fangorn has (and which are reminiscent of the Old Forest).

[Boromir88]

The reason I go with Glorfindel, atleast over Gandalf the "grey," would be since Glorfindel's death I think he learned a lot. I believe what he says in The Council of Elrond to be quite accurate, although it's just suposition. Maybe, not necesarrily more then Gandalf the White, since I also believe Gandalf learned a lot from his death, and reincarnation, but it's just a matter of opinions .

You might be right about Treebeard, since he does "shut himself," into Fangorn, and for countless amounts of years stayed out of the wars, saying it was for Elves, Men and wizards. And he didn't have much care, besides for Fangorn, that could cast in some doubt. I take his knowledge about Saruman to be accurate, since he used to spend time with the guy .

[the phantom]

Surely, he is simply describing Treebeard as the oldest living Ent, rather than the oldest living creature. After all, it was the Elves who "woke" the Ents

I thought that the Elves woke the "trees".

Isn't there a difference?

Ents came from Yavanna's thought. Eru told her (through Manwe) that at the same time the elves woke up, her thoughts would awaken and summon spirits from afar to go and dwell in some of the plants and animals. So ents have a fea and woke up at the same time as the first elves.

But this doesn't mean that the elves couldn't have roused trees from their sleep. Tolkien said that animals could be raised to a higher level and taught to speak, but that speaking does not necessarily indicate a soul. So talking trees are basically just animals that got raised to a higher level by the elves. Ents, however, have feas, and were already awake before the elves came walking by.

Does this work for everyone?