LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 04 - Treebeard

[The Saucepan Man]

Hmm, it's difficult to doubt Gandalf. But surely there must still be Elves in Middle-earth who outstrip Treebeard in terms of age. Wasn't Cirdan one of the Elves who originally woke by Lake Cuivienen? And what about Tom? I believe that there is a thread about this somewhere around here ...

As for Treebeard's reference to the trees in the dark hollows that were even older than he, perhaps, like Old Man Willow, they were not able to walk.

Edit: There are a few threads on this. Here are two of them:

Who’s the oldest?

Who’s the oldest? (2)

[HerenIstarion]

Wakening of the Ents by Elves - I always figured that as consisting mainly in teaching the former speech - awaking from slumber. Thing which slumbers is alive by definition. When fully awoke and able to hum-burarum-ram-roms and similar, it is allegedly more alive than before, drowsy as it was, but it were not dead matter, it were 'alive and kicking', though dumb and speechless.

Besides, does Cirdan walk per se? He rather sits on his wossname most of the time, on the very brim of ME.

And another besides - it may be mere slip of the tongue on Gandalf's part - he may have not remembered exeptions right on the spot, or maybe he was reluctant to break an impression of antiquity he was working up in his listeners etc. It would have been lecture rather than recollection if it ran as follows:

he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing, apart from Iarwain, who is [insert appropriate here] and therefore older, and Cirdan, who was born, as you may know, by lake Cuivienen, which is now lost, that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth

And the third besides (being a speculation, rather than statement): Cirdan is an elf - therefore his life would last as long as Arda lasts, even if he's killed and goes to Aman. Tom is unknown entity (whatever my personal opinions), but allegedly not bound by such a trifle as death. Ents, on the other hand, are similar to humans in ageing and dying, which may take a long time, but the process is evident - Ents are old, some of them die, and all of them will die out unless the Entwives be found. So, it may be that Gandalf has mental proviso, including that class of creatures (dying with true death), and that's among those is Treebeard the oldest - for obviously, Tom is an exeption and elves are special.

EDIT. Just another 'walking' thought (supporting third 'besides') - Gandalf is incarnate, therefore living being, and by that he may be the older one - but he does not draw himself in, neither Saruman, nor Radagast - i.e. different class of beings does not count. So I proclaim speculation plausible END OF EDIT

cheers

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Hmm, it's difficult to doubt Gandalf. But surely there must still be Elves in Middle-earth who outstrip Treebeard in terms of age. Wasn't Cirdan one of the Elves who originally woke by Lake Cuivienen? And what about Tom? I believe that there is a thread about this somewhere around here ...

Oh this is another one of those sticking points which Tolkien fans love to stretch out as if it were one of those old-style taffy-pulls of days gone by.

An authority no less than Tom himself tells the hobbits:

"Who are you, Master;" [Frodo] asked.

"Eh, what?" said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

Where oh where was Christopher Proof-reader on this one?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The difference in forests in the bulk of Middle-earth, as opposed to
Beleriand and Numenor- which hold no apparent significant evil-
is interesting, Fangorn's etc. evil due to the influence of Morgoth and Sauron?

For example, about the Bay of Eldanna:

All about that place, up the seaward slopes and far into the land, grew the evergreen and fragrant trees that they brought out of the West, and so throve there that the Elder said that almost it was fair as a haven of Eressea. They were the greatest delight of Numenor, and they were remembered in many songs long after they had perished for ever, for few ever flowered east of the Land of Gift: oiolaire and lairelosse, nessamelda, vardarianna, taniquelasse, and yavannamire with its globed and scarlet fruits. Flower, leaf, and rind of those trees exuded sweet scents, and all that country was full of blended fragrance...only here grew the mighty golden tree malinorne, reaching after five centuries a height scarce less than it achieved in Eressea.

Perhaps an echo of what Fangorn, Mirkwood, etc. could have been without
the machinations of Morgoth and Sauron

[Boromir88]

Wonderful quote Bethberry, maybe there is no slip up in the proof-reading of Christopher Tolkien. Maybe, it's simply pointing out that Gandalf himself made a slip up. I agree with SpM, that Gandalf is one of the more trusted peoples from LOTR, but he even makes his slip ups. Denethor is right when saying Gandalf doesn't know everything, I think Gandalf is more reliable then Denethor, but Gandalf has made some occasional slip ups. Even some of the most reliable sources of info can make wrong judgements (as I'm sure we are well aware of).

This right here is what makes Tolkien interesting to read. With all these POV's you got to pick out who is more reliable, one or the other. There is no clear answer, but some people are just more reliable then others. I would hold Bombadil, Treebeard, Glorfindel, Galadriel, to name a few who are more reliable then Gandalf.

[Boromir88]

I think I just found a reasonable argument to solve this question. But, of course, I am open to debate .

In Bethberry's quote:

Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

Tom remembers the time before the rivers and the trees, and he says "Tom is the eldest....mark my words."

Where Treebeard's account of "time" only goes to when Middle-earth was filled with forests:

"It is a rather strange and sad story," he went on after a pause. "When the world was young, and the woods were wide and wild....and the Entwives gave their thought to other things, for the Ents loved the great trees, and the wild woods, and the slopes of the high hills; and they drank of the mountain-streams...."

Treebeard doesn't mention anything about the time before the rivers, and the woods, so their are two possibilities: Either Treebeard has no need to get into the time before, and can't remember, or Bombadil was here before. Since, he can mention about the time before the trees and rivers.

One quick observation, I think there are a lot of simularities between Lorien and Fangorn.

"Then lead on!" said Boromir. "But it is perilous."
"Perilous indeed," said Aragorn, "fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with the. Follow me!"

I think the same can be said for Fangorn. If you are an orc destroying trees, and "bring evil into the forest," then it is perilous, since you just ticked off the Ents. but, if you are a good-hearted Hobbit, then you don't need to worry.

Celeborn instructs the Fellowship to not go into Fangorn. Where Treebeard says "And I might have same, if you had been going the other way. Do not risk getting entangled in the woods of Laurelindorenan!"

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by HI

Wakening of the Ents by Elves - I always figured that as consisting mainly in teaching the former speech - awaking from slumber. Thing which slumbers is alive by definition.

True, but could they walk before they were awoken? Since they become more "tree-like" with age and inactivity, I imagine that this is how they were before the Elves awoke them. And I suspect that Gandalf's inclusion of the words "walks beneath the Sun" are important, since there could well be trees that are older than Treebeard (for example, those in the deep dark hollows).

I go along with your theory as far as Ainur and Tom are concerned, HI, but I am not sure that it entirely explains the inconsistency as far as Elves are concerned. Perhaps, as you suggest, Gandalf was just talking in "shorthand".

Originally Posted by Boro

There is no clear answer, but some people are just more reliable then others. I would hold Bombadil, Treebeard, Glorfindel, Galadriel, to name a few who are more reliable then Gandalf.

In one of Tolkien's Letters, he casts doubt on Treebeard's reliability (though not his integrity), saying that he does not know everything. And, as one of the Maiar, I would class Gandalf as more reliable than Glorfindel and Galadriel, although their direct involvement in Middle-earth is the longer. As for Tom, well who knows ...?

Originally Posted by Bb

Oh this is another one of those sticking points which Tolkien fans love to stretch out as if it were one of those old-style taffy-pulls of days gone by.

Indeed. And I am one of those taffy-pullers.

But there is much more to discuss in this Chapter. I would, for example, be interested to hear other views on the tale of the Entwives, Tolkien's "male v female approach" comment in his letter and how this all relates back to the Old Forest Chapter and Tolkien's own views on nature (wild v tamed).

Also, why the focus on Pippin rather than Merry?

Finally:

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Perhaps an echo of what Fangorn, Mirkwood, etc. could have been without the machinations of Morgoth and Sauron

Although Middle-earth does have this in Lothlorien which, though perilous, is entirely different in character to Fangorn, Mirkwood and the Old Forest.

EDIT: Cross-posting with Boro's edit, expressing a different view. I agree with you on that one point, although I suspect that Lorien does not have the deep dark hollows that Fangorn has (and which are reminiscent of the Old Forest).

[Boromir88]

The reason I go with Glorfindel, atleast over Gandalf the "grey," would be since Glorfindel's death I think he learned a lot. I believe what he says in The Council of Elrond to be quite accurate, although it's just suposition. Maybe, not necesarrily more then Gandalf the White, since I also believe Gandalf learned a lot from his death, and reincarnation, but it's just a matter of opinions .

You might be right about Treebeard, since he does "shut himself," into Fangorn, and for countless amounts of years stayed out of the wars, saying it was for Elves, Men and wizards. And he didn't have much care, besides for Fangorn, that could cast in some doubt. I take his knowledge about Saruman to be accurate, since he used to spend time with the guy .

[the phantom]

Surely, he is simply describing Treebeard as the oldest living Ent, rather than the oldest living creature. After all, it was the Elves who "woke" the Ents

I thought that the Elves woke the "trees".

Isn't there a difference?

Ents came from Yavanna's thought. Eru told her (through Manwe) that at the same time the elves woke up, her thoughts would awaken and summon spirits from afar to go and dwell in some of the plants and animals. So ents have a fea and woke up at the same time as the first elves.

But this doesn't mean that the elves couldn't have roused trees from their sleep. Tolkien said that animals could be raised to a higher level and taught to speak, but that speaking does not necessarily indicate a soul. So talking trees are basically just animals that got raised to a higher level by the elves. Ents, however, have feas, and were already awake before the elves came walking by.

Does this work for everyone?

[davem]

I’m later than usual for this thread & a lot of important points have already been made. Its difficult to know where to begin. As this is a long chapter, & we have a couple of weeks to go into it, I’ll take it bit by bit. First off:

Its clear at least, that the LotR Ents appeared first, & that Tolkien wrote them back into theSil. In HoME we find him speculating on their origin:

Did first lord of the Elves make Tree-folk in order to or through trying to understand trees? And...

Notes for Treebeard.

In some ways rather stupid. Are the Tree-folk (Lone-walkers) hnau that have gone tree-like, or trees that have become hnau*?

Difference between trolls - stone inhabited by gobli-spirit, stone-giants, & the ‘tree-folk’

* hnau are a Lewisian idea - conscious beings with souls.

So, Tolkien has invented the Ents, but hasn’t come up with an account of them. It seems like he knew they were there, but had no idea where they had come from. In fact, in letter 157 he says:

I always felt something ought to be done about the peculiar Anglo-Saxon word ent for a ‘giant’ or mighty person of long ago - to whom all old works were ascribed.

It does seem though that he ‘knew’ they weren’t beings like Trolls - unnnatual creatures - stone animated by goblin spirits, or stone- giants - natural creatures who had existed always in their current forms. The Ents are rational beings who may have once been something else - ordinary trees, perhaps, which were given sentience.

Whatever, Tolkien, through Treebeard, does have something interesting to say about tom Bombadil:

What about whom? said Treebeard. ‘Tombombadil? Tombombadil? So that is his what you call him. Oh, he has got a very long name. He understands trees, right enough; but he is no herdsman. He laughs & does not interfere. He never made anything go wrong, but he never cured anything, either

It seems Treebeard feels that it is important to be an active participant in the world - Bombadil is in the wrong as far as the Ent is concerned, because while he may not have done anything bad, he hasn’t done any good, either. Yet Treebeard himself has been passive enough in his own land up to this point, & has to be stirred up to take action. Treebeard seems to think a lot, but he isn’t a great doer. And he doesn’t have Bombadil’s excuse, either.

Another interesting tidbit from HoME, perhaps tying it into the Lorien theme, is Treebeard’s comment on the distance he has carried Merry & Pippin to his Ent-house:

’I have brought you three times twelve leagues or thereabouts, if measurements of that kind hold good in the country of Fangorn.

It almost seems as if at this point Tolkien is thinking of Fangorn as an otherworldly place similar to Lorien; In Lorientime may move differently to the outside world, in Fangorn it is space[/i] that follows different laws. Or perhaps just as the Elves perceptions affect their understanding of time, the Ents perceptions affect their understanding of distance. Perhaps the Ents are more complex beings than may at first appear.

But to the actual chapter under discussion. Th efirst thing that struck me was Treebeard’s statement:

"For one thing it would take a long while: my name is growing all the time, and I've lived a very long, long time; so my name is like a story. Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to in my language, in the Old Entish as you might say. It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to.

Which ties in with what he said in the draft about Tom Bombadil:

[i]Tombombadil? Tombombadil? So that is his what you call him. Oh, he has got a very long name.

So, in Entish a ‘name’ isn’t just a ‘label’, its a ‘story’. Its the story of the thing itself. To know a thing or person’s Entish name is to know their history, their nature, everything about them.

’Hm, but you are a hasty folk, I see,’ said Treebeard. ‘I am honoured by your confidence; but you should not be too free all at once. There are Ents & Ents, you know; or there are Ents & things that look like Ents but ain’t, as you might say.’

This is interesting, not simply because its a warning to innocents who have strayed into a potentially dangerous place, but for another reason. Names were once considered to be magical things. To know a thing’’s true name was believed to give him or her power over it. Le Guin uses this idea in the Earthsea books, but it was a common belief once uopn a time. But Tolkien uses the idea himself in the Conversation with Smaug. Bilbo, there, is extremely careful to avoid telling his right name to Smaug.

The other interesting thing about Entish names is that they are very often incomplete or unfinished. The ‘right name’ of a person or thing is their story, & it continues to change & develop as long as their ‘story’ (their life or existence) goes on. Perhaps it doesn’’t even attain a final form even then - not if their acts or one time existence continue to have repercussions after they’ve gone. Its easy to understand Treebeard’s confusion over Pippin’s statement about Gandalf’s fall:

’But you speak of Master Gandalf as if he was in a story that had come to an end.’

Because to him its not just a case of Gandalf dying, but of the end of that particular story. Gandalf, for Treebeard, was both in a story & the story itself. He is being told that the story ‘Gandalf’ has been finished. The Entish name of anything is its story, but do the Ents see everything as just a ‘story’? Perhaps for the Ents the story is more is more important than the person or thing it is told about? Treebeard seems incredibly concerned about the ending of stories, because when a story ends it may be put aside & forgotten, & the telling of tales is the reason Entish exists. Perhaps Treebeard feels some connection between the fading of his race & the fading of his language? After all, when the Ents finally die out, Entish will die out too, & so will the stories which were told in it. After the last Ent has died there will be no-one left who knows the name of the ‘thing’:

’we are on, where i stand & look out on fine mornings, & think about the Sun, & the grass beyond the wood, & the horses, & the clouds, & the unfolding of the world....

Its Entish name will be lost forever, hence it’s story will be lost forever, & it will become just a ‘hill’, one among many, & thus nothing special - even as the trees Treebeard has known from nut & acorn, trees with voices & names of their own - stories of their own - will become simply ‘trees’, sources of timber, any of which may be cut down - to feed the fires of Orthanc, or anything else ‘orcs’ may decide to do with them.

When a thing’s ‘right name’ is forgotten, its story is lost, & then it becomes worthless. It is only the Ents who keep those stories alive - even the Elves have developed other concerns. Ents are the ‘record keepers’ of Middle earth, & something vital will be lost with their passing. Its easy to overlook that - that the Ent’s role in Middle earth is to be its ‘living memory’ - & see their passing as a tragedy for them alone. It isn’t. Its a loss for the whole of Middle earth & everyone in it, because the ‘stories’ that make up ‘Middle earth’ are the stories of its people, places & things, & the only ones who know those stories are the Ents. The right names of things, their stories, will be forgotten, & those things will then begin to lose any sense of their real value & their unique identity. The Ent’s tragedy is Middle earth’s tragedy, because their passing will inevitably bring about its passing. Middle earth will become the world we know, precisely because there are no Ents who know every ‘thing’s’ ‘right name’,& are able to tell it’s story. No ‘right name’ means no true story, & no true story means no uniqueness, no meaning.

We are witnessing the beginning of a terrible loss - even greater in some ways for the world than the loss of the Elves - but we may not realise it, because the form it takes is the dying out of a bunch of strange walking & talking trees.